EP296: Let’s Talk Streaming With Bruce Nash | Nash Information Services LLC

Everyone wants to be the biggest streaming giant in entertainment, but tracking streaming data can be tricky. Bruce Nash talks to us today about how many impressions entertainment content receives, and the metrics inside of the business of entertainment. He also let's us know what it adjudicator is, as he is the official adjudicator of movie records for the Guinness Book of Records.

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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to marketing mistakes and how to avoid that. Here’s your host, Stacy Jones,Speaker 2 (00:12):
Welcome to marketing mistakes and how to avoid them. I’m Stacy Jones, and I’m so happy to be here with you all today and wanna give a very warm welcome to Bruce now. Nash. Bruce is the founder and president of Nash information services. The premier provider of movie industry data and research services. The company operates the numbers, a website that provides box office and video sales tracking and daily industry news. Their insights include competitor analysis and international sales projections for feature films and real time tracking of the industry through its Opus data service. In the last 24 years, the company has grown to serve over 1000 clients from the major studios and multi-billion dollar production companies. The first time independent filmmakers, Bruce provides regular commentary analysis for media outlets, including the LA times, the New York times variety the wall street journal. 60 minutes in CBS news. His work was featured in the New York times bestselling book, big data, a revolution that will transform how we live, work, and think Bruce is also the official adjudicator of movie records for the Guinness book of records today, Bruce and I are gonna be chatting about how many impressions, entertainment con intent receives and the metrics inside of the business of entertainment, which quite frankly, personally fascinates me based on the product placement partnerships we build at Hollywood branded. Bruce. Welcome. So happy to have you.Speaker 3 (01:33):
Thank you so much, Stacy. It’s great to be here and thank you for inviting,Speaker 2 (01:37):
Of course. So what I’d love to start off with is the man behind the numbers. Literally, how did you get into this? What made you gravitate towards moving metrics?Speaker 3 (01:50):
Uh, that’s a great question. So I, um, my background is actually in mathematics, so I, I, I have a maths degree. Um, and I was working in software development back in the late nineties, um, for, uh, IBM actually, um, which was very much trying not to do anything about the worldwide web and the internet and, and more or less trying to ignore the whole thing and the hope that it just kind of went away and I was living in Silicon valley and, and obviously everybody I was, you know, hanging out with was building websites and you, you know, getting involved in, in the web. And I thought, well, I really should learn something about this and it, so it really came from that. And the fact that I loved movies, the fact that there were really at the time there was IMDB, but there were, wasn’t a website devoted to the financial side of the movie industry.Speaker 3 (02:44):
Um, and, um, you know, it seemed like a good way to just find out how websites were built. And, and so I created the numbers websites, um, and started running that kind of as a hobby. And, and then after not very long, I started getting emails from film producers saying, Hey, I’m working on my business plan. This date is great, but I need, you know, more than this, right. It’s not good enough to just know what was the weekend box office for these films. We need to know how many DVDs are they selling at the time. Um, how, how much is the being rented from blockbuster? How is this being licensed for television and, and so on? And so that really became very quickly the, the core of the business was in helping first of all, independent filmmakers and then more and more the studios and now, you know, streamers and, you know, other, the other big guys in, in trying, and to answer those questions, how is this piece of content?

Speaker 3 (03:43):
Now we used to think of movies. Now we think of content in, you know, a dozen different ways. Um, how is that gonna reach an audience? Who’s gonna watch it? Why are they gonna watch it? And what ultimately in really, you know, our core strength is in answering question, how much is this gonna make for investors? You know, is this gonna be a good investment? Um, so yeah, so, you know, we’ve really kind of built off of that base of just being interested in tracking stuff and, and, you know, out of that real idea that we want to be able to track every cent that is spent on, uh, a movie as it goes from production through release and into, you know, syndication on TV and all of those things.

Speaker 2 (04:28):
Well, without giving away your secret sauce and your magic to how you get there, how do you come up with all these amazing numbers? I mean, it’s not like just the average Joe who’s out there is like, you’re us. This is, you know, how many impressions this is the box office, this is the eyeballs, this is the sales. Like, how do you even figure out how to approach this when you’re like, I’m a mathematician and I’m just gonna figure it out.

Speaker 3 (04:54):
Well, so some of the things we, we get now from the studio, so, so the studios send us out their weekend box, office numbers and daily numbers, an international box office, um, and some of the demographic information, um, you know, that we then will, you know, talk about it on the website, but we’re also kind of collecting and, you know, trying to keep track of, you know, what films are appealing to what different, um, demographics. Um, but then beyond that, um, the, I mean, really what we do is we try to gather as much information as we can. So Netflix, for example, has a daily, top 10. Um, they actually just announced today that they’re gonna start doing a little bit more than that, which is exciting for us. Um, and you know, and we look for that. We look at, you know, Google plays and iTunes charts and voodoo and fan Bango now, and red box and, and try to bring in all of that data to see what’s being released, where are they doing well there, you know, if it’s the number one ranked title on red box, we can be sure it’s, you know, renting pretty well, um, on, on visible disc.

Speaker 3 (06:01):
Uh, and then, um, fortunately now we’ve, we well enough established that we get real numbers from our clients. So they will share with us, this is how much, how many DVDs we sold. Um, this is what we got for the streaming rights for this, for this title. And that allows us by marrying, you know, that public data with the private information that we have to be able to say, well, this is, you know, based on the type of movie this is and what we are seeing our clients get from, you know, Netflix for, um, for shows, we can say with reasonable certainty, this is what this, this show would’ve got or what, you know, this project should be worth when, uh, when it’s made.

Speaker 2 (06:44):
And so your go-to people who are interested in your service typically are looking for funding for their film, their project, or ability to talk to their financiers, to explain and justify what the ask is, right?

Speaker 3 (06:58):
Yeah. I mean, in terms of absolute numbers. Exactly. Yes. Um, you know, those, those are the most, um, you know, at any given time we’re probably working on, you know, 10 different projects like that with, um, with our clients. Um, we also work with the, the, the larger, you know, the studio and, uh, streamers, um, and that tends to be more on a database, you know? So, um, you know, if you’re a streamer, you are spending now billions of dollars on producing content and, um, you know, you can afford to just buy every piece of data that we, we generate. And so we have, um, you know, deals with, uh, uh, with streamers, with the studios where they’re acquiring our, and then it goes in, unfortunately for me and everyone kind of goes into a back hole, right. Cuz they’re, they’re not telling me what they’re doing with it. Um, you know, beyond being grateful for having it, I suppose. But, um, uh, yeah, I’d love to be, I’d love to in the room a little bit more with some of the decisions that they’re making, you know, based, based on all that data,

Speaker 2 (08:04):
But, uh, no, I’m sure a lot of it’s used for competitor analysis. Like I’m sure Amazon and Netflix, HBO max are very curious about how each other’s content’s performing and everyone is so tight li about it, that they’re just looking for little, like bread crumbs anywhere on frail, like be able to piece together, uh, what their business case is as well.

Speaker 3 (08:25):
Right? Yes. And, and even, you know, to, to the, you know, to the point of, you know, just what, what are the other platforms showing, um, you know, there is so much content out there and, and I mean, anybody, you know, listening who has a Netflix subscription, those, you just can’t keep up with what Netflix is putting out every day. Um, and so, you know, if your HBO, max, you know, your, your interest is probably, well, what, what broadly speaking is Netflix doing right now? Um, you know, as they bring out reality shows and, and, you know, sort of docu-series, and, you know, you know, red notice came out at the weekend, which is a sort of traditional big budget, blockbuster,

Speaker 2 (09:13):
200 million to, they said,

Speaker 3 (09:16):
Right. Yeah. You know, they’re spending that kind of money. Um,

Speaker 2 (09:20):
That’s big blockbuster for our listeners. Like that is like big movie money. That’s like, right. The approach of what the major studios are doing for blockbusters are gonna go global that are their 10 poles summer hits. Like, this is the big thing that they just did.

Speaker 3 (09:36):
Right. Right. And, and, and then you have to sort of multiply that across the world. Right. Because Netflix are operating in every country in the world essentially. Um, and their licensing content in every country, including, you know, if you’re in the UK and watching Netflix, it’s British television, you know, very popular there. Um, and also, you know, us TV shows the Netflix can’t license in, in the United States, but they’ve got a deal to, to show in the UK. So, um, and they’re

Speaker 2 (10:08):
Paying for

Speaker 3 (10:08):
That, that

Speaker 2 (10:08):
Whole landscape they’re like having to pay if they don’t produce it themselves.

Speaker 3 (10:12):
Right. Right. Um, and that whole landscape is very, and, and so, you know, being able to just cut through that and see, okay, Netflix, you know, drama is really popular in France for Netflix and, you know, Disney, I mean, you know, Disney take a specific example, you know, Disney plus is, uh, you know, very driven by its sports coverage in India. You know, they’ve got, uh, through hot star, um, rights to, I believe the cricket in India, which is a huge deal in that country. Um, and that drive

Speaker 2 (10:47):
Of United States, no one wants a cricket here.

Speaker 3 (10:49):
Right. Uh, one of us on the podcast wants cricket, but, you know, I, I do see, uh, that I’m in a very, very small majority, my minority.

Speaker 2 (10:58):
So you prefer cricket over rugby.

Speaker 3 (11:01):
Uh, I do

Speaker 2 (11:02):
Actually. And you prefer cricket over football, like, and actually like the soccer football.

Speaker 3 (11:08):
I do. I, you know, I I’m a little long in the tooth for it, but I still go out every weekend and play cricket and, uh, yeah, I’m a huge fan of it. And so I know intimately how difficult it is to find on the television here in the United States compared to, you know, the, the rest of the world, but that, but I was striving, you know, the, the business for, you know, for Disney plus in India is, is, you know, that they have those rights and, and, um, you know, and here in the us, we don’t really think about that at, because it’s not part of, you know, what people are looking at every day.

Speaker 2 (11:43):
So yeah. If we’re not in mainstream sports, dramas, horror, and comedy, there’s pretty much not much being watched.

Speaker 3 (11:51):
Right. Right. Um, so,

Speaker 2 (11:55):
So how, when you’re looking at this data, you know, and obviously your sources are very good that you’re pulling together, but what kind of pictures can it paint? Like what is the story that data typically tells, um, that you’ve put together? It’s, it’s more than just numbers.

Speaker 3 (12:13):
Yeah. So what we, what we are really trying to do is, and, and you actually put it beautifully, um, is to get the data, to tell us a story that we can communicate with people because ultimately, um, you know, the best data in the world, isn’t going to be worth anything. If you can’t persuade somebody to make a business decision based on it. Um, and so, you know, we look at, and a good example of this right now is the box office in the us. Um, which obviously we’re coming back from the pandemic and films are starting to come out again. And we are beginning to learn what films working, what aren’t, um, people return to, to theaters. Um, and, you know, because we’ve spent a lot of time thinking about this and we have a classification system for movies for every movie that goes into a theater.

Speaker 3 (13:05):
We know how to think about that movie and how to draw conclusions about what’s what’s happening in the theatrical business. Um, so for example, back in the, the very early part of the year, um, uh, you know, around March time, all of the restaurants were closed. All of the parks were closed. You couldn’t take your kids really anywhere out of doors, apart from movie theaters, in some cases. And so at the beginning of, of the recovery, you know, Tom and Jerry was the first, like, you know, really successful movie because, you know, we believe parents were just desperate to get out of the house and do something with their kids. And this provided them with the means to, to do that. Um, so, you know, so we can start to say, okay, well now we know that this is, you know, the kind of the core of the business. And then through the summer, we sort of evolved a bit more and action moves really have taken off and, you know, black widow and Chani and venom did very well. Um, and, um, and now we’re getting to the point where we’re into Oscar season and we’re seeing films like Spencer and, um, the French dispatch and, um, whatever it was came out of the weekend, I’m, I’m blanking on right now. Um, but those, those films, you know, seem to be doing less well because they’re aimed as an audience that is less that’s

Speaker 2 (14:26):
Home. They’re staying home, they’re worried about vaccines and they’re at home.

Speaker 3 (14:31):
Exactly. Yeah. Um, so, you know, so what what able to to do now is we’ve, we’ve now got a pretty good picture of what’s happening in theatrical markets. And we can go, you know, with our clients and, and, and say, well, these are the films that we think are going to do well in 2022. These are the ones that, you know, you know, maybe a little bit more of an issue. Um, and, and so that, you know, as they say, I mean, we can, because we’re thinking about the data, you know, the goal is to be able to translate that into a story where, where somebody can say, okay, this needs to be our strategy around family moves around, action moves around, you know, the Oscar hopefuls. Um,

Speaker 2 (15:13):
Or maybe we put a pause on something for a little bit until COVID works its way out.

Speaker 3 (15:17):
Right. Unfortunately, I I’m, I’m not taking responsibility for any, for any of that, but, um, but yeah, I mean, you know, top gun will come out eventually, but, uh,

Speaker 2 (15:27):
You and mission impossible too.

Speaker 3 (15:29):
Right, right.

Speaker 2 (15:31):
Ever ending, moving window of a Tom cruise, like fleet of films that keeps on pushing things back through the years.

Speaker 3 (15:39):
Right. I mean, and you can see why with someone like, you know, with, with movies like that, they’ve invested so much in. And, um, you know, they’re both paramount movies, so paramount doesn’t really have a big streaming, uh, presence yet. Um,

Speaker 2 (15:53):
You don’t think paramount plus is the big streaming presence that they’re hoping for it to be right now,

Speaker 3 (15:58):
Not yet. Um, but they could, you know, they could say, well, you know, come next summer, this is our opportunity to do a simultaneous release or do something with paramount plus that will get actually people to sign up in large numbers

Speaker 2 (16:09):
Like Disney did with black widow.

Speaker 3 (16:11):
Exactly. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (16:12):
Or jungle cruise, where they did a little bit better and get sued by Scarlet Joe Hanson.

Speaker 3 (16:18):
Right. Right. Um, so yeah, we’ll, we’ll see. But I, you know, I think, I think that there’s, you know, now we’re beginning to get a picture of what the theatrical market looks like, you know, what can be released and what the business model looks like. And the, then, you know, the studios can make the decisions on what to do with an individual film based on that.

Speaker 2 (16:38):
What do you think of what’s going on with the streamers in general? Like, you know, we just made a little joke about paramount plus, and I will tell you right now that it has some series, their comedies are phenomenal. They have really, really good shows that should, the time should get picked up, should go out for licensing all over the place. And I hope they do, but what is your viewpoint on what’s going on in the streaming landscape?

Speaker 3 (17:03):
So, you know, I, I, um, I, I, I do a class at, uh, uh, at a film school and, um, you know, obviously this is something that the Stu students are extremely interested in. And, and I always start out with a slide where we go down the streaming platforms and talk about what is the, what is the business goal for this company that, that runs this platform, um, and, you know, and it kind, and it is actually different for every single platform. Um, you know, in the case of Netflix, their, their goal is to get you to subscribe again, next month, they want your credit card to be charged successfully in 30 days time. And that’s their business model. If you are Disney, your business model is getting people into theme park because that’s where Disney really makes its its money. And so they want to build these, you know, big brands that can become, you know, essentially theme park attractions, you know, star wars and Marvel and Pixar and, and so on. Um, if you are, uh, uh, Warner brothers, it’s a little bit more of a difficult question, um, to sort of figure out what their, what their business goal is, and, and

Speaker 2 (18:21):
Not to be left behind. Right. I think that’s what their scramble is. It’s not the best business goal, but I think that might be what they’re trying to do.

Speaker 3 (18:29):
Right, right. Yeah. To, to sort of compete on all France. Um, and, you know, merging with discovery is actually kind of interesting from that perspective that, that sort of gets them much more towards competing with Netflix, I think, than it is towards competing with, with Disney,

Speaker 2 (18:45):
Because of all the content that they get in the licensing deal from that, especially with content that discovery is known for, and the reality, um, drives a lot of viewers on a, a continual basis.

Speaker 3 (18:58):
Right, right. Yes. Yes. Um, and you can’t really imagine Disney wanting to do much reality because it just doesn’t fit with their brand. It doesn’t fit with, you know, their, their, their business, frankly.

Speaker 2 (19:11):
No. Cause reality usually is a little more salacious sometimes it’s, but Disney, I will say does very good elephant documentaries. I like that.

Speaker 3 (19:21):
Right. Right. Yes. National geographic stuff is, you know, a good fit for Disney and the whole family base. Right. I mean, that that’s really, um, you know, diff the difference is they’re really focused on a family audience. Um, and, and, you know, and that of course is a weakness, right. That, um, you know, HBO, max can have, you know, much more, you know, adult focused, you know, a show like succession works really well on HBO

Speaker 2 (19:51):
Or flight attendant.

Speaker 3 (19:53):
Right. Right. And isn’t a fit for, for, for Disney, um,

Speaker 2 (19:58):
Or gen X euphoria, all sorts of things that are a little bit more edgy.

Speaker 3 (20:02):

Speaker 2 (20:02):
Right. Like HBO always has been edgy.

Speaker 3 (20:05):
Right. Right. And, and, you know, and you can definitely see them sort of carve out their niche there. And again, you know, reality actually fits know fairly well with, with that. Um, and then the other, you know, the other two sort of elephants in the room, um, since you brought up elephants, uh, are apple,

Speaker 2 (20:25):
Big product placement play there. Right. They have created a advertising channel for their products.

Speaker 3 (20:31):
Exactly. Right. Apple’s business goal is to sell more iPhones. Um, and you know, and if you want, I mean, we’ve been enjoying, um, uh, the morning show, um, and there are like 80% of that show revolves around people talking on their, on their cell phones. Right. And

Speaker 2 (20:51):
There’s, they have their MacBooks there and they have like their displays, everything is apple, apple, apple,

Speaker 3 (20:56):
Right. And they’re, you know, glamorous and they’re going to exotic locations and, you know, their lifestyle is enabled by this technology that they carry around in their pocket. Um, essentially, uh, so, um, you know, so that, that is, you know, sort of a weird niche in comparison to the others, but, you know, makes total sense for, for apple, particularly as a sort of defensive play, um, because they want to make sure that the content looks great on their devices. Um, don’t want to have, you know, Netflix do okay. You know, Netflix decides that VR is the next big thing. Right. And so they invest in VR, but Netflix doesn’t have a VR device. Um, then you know, that obviously is a, you know, a weak list for, for our people, but they can say, okay, well, we are gonna plan much better VR than Netflix can do, because we can make this, you know, amazing VR headset that, you know, will integrate with your iPhone and your MacBook and, you know, all that stuff. Um, okay. So that’s one of the other, one of the elephants and the, the other one is Amazon, um, which, you know, again is very interesting from a business perspective, um, because you know, they, so number one Amazon’s business, and I, I’m sure a lot of people listening, you know, know this anyway, but, um, it’s kind of mind blowing, you know, their business is built off of web hosting. That’s where they make all of them, um, is on actually, you know, Netflix is, I think their biggest customer

Speaker 2 (22:28):
Is that the cloud server,

Speaker 3 (22:29):
Right? So Amazon’s cloud services is, you know, where all of their profit comes from retail is actually just kind of a hobby for them in, in terms of, you know, revenue. Is

Speaker 2 (22:40):
It really, is it that much of a differential that the cloud service is really that much more of a driver than what sold on Amazon prime? That I use pretty much everything,

Speaker 3 (22:49):
I believe it or not. Yes. Um, there, um, I, I haven’t checked in a, in a couple of years, but when, when I, the last time I looked at this, a hundred percent of Amazon’s revenue came from three things, their cloud services, their, um, brand credit cards. So if you get an Amazon credit card to spend money on am, you know, Amazon, they, they make like 5% margin or whatever it is. Right. So, so

Speaker 2 (23:18):
Good way to work it on both sides,

Speaker 3 (23:20):
Right. Doesn’t cost any

Speaker 2 (23:22):
Buy products and use our credit card and you’ll get it perceived discount, but not really.

Speaker 3 (23:26):
Right. Right. Um, so that was number two. And then number three was, um, unre, redeemed, Amazon gift cards. If everybody listening, redeemed their Amazon gift cards, Amazon would be in a heap of trouble because that’s where they make their money is. And, you know, you give your on $50 gift card for her birthday. She maybe spends half of it. She maybe forgets about it completely, but Amazon already has the $50 and doesn’t have to do anything more.

Speaker 2 (24:00):
I, I get Starbucks also would be in so much trouble of all of our today, just raced out there and spread the word and like redeem your Starbucks, redeem your Starbucks. And that would be, you would see like stock falls, market crashes, all sorts of things happening out there.

Speaker 3 (24:17):
Exactly. Yeah. I don’t think they have enough cash on hand to, uh, to cover everybody doing it at the same time. But, um, but yeah, I mean, so, you know, if you think about Amazon, you know, their business in retail is, you know, and it is profitable if you think about the gift card, non redemption and the credit cards, but that’s really, you know, allows them to offer, you know, rock bottom prices and, you know, same day delivery and all of the things that has made them so much, you know, whether it’s good or bad part of our everyday lives. Sure. Um, so, you know, when you then think about, well, what is the, why are they spending a billion dollars on a Lord of the rings TV show? Um, it’s ki it’s kind of hard to answer that question. Um, I think, think that really, it is part of just a desire to be part of every transaction that somebody does, whether it’s, you know, buying something at retail or watching something on, on online, you know, on their cell phone, you know, whatever it may be, Amazon,

Speaker 2 (25:25):
Your space adventure as well.

Speaker 3 (25:27):
Right. You know, if, if Amazon is the, the gatekeeper, if they’re, if they’re the, the thing that you go through in order to get your entertainment or your, um, you know, your house supplies, you know, whatever it is that, you know, is more information that they, they have, um, that, you know, they see as valuable in order to, you know, they would say they provide you with a better service and, you know, and so on and so forth. Um, but yeah, but it, it does really call into question other than the fact that they have a billion dollars in Jeff Bizos likes go to the rings. You know, it does call into question why they’re spending so much money on, on TV. And of course, you know, acquiring MGM, um, is that their latest,

Speaker 2 (26:08):
I believe that one of their, and although your theory may have just destroyed my theory by the way. But I believe that Amazon is trying to bring in product placement advertising into their content because of some of their positioning of doing post-production digital and some of the conversations that they’re having right now with brand marketers to, um, replace products in scene and to value that based on a CPM and get brand advertiser dollars, moved into Amazon in the near future.

Speaker 3 (26:46):
Interesting. Okay.

Speaker 2 (26:47):
This is for all your listeners, here’s the inside scoop of what Stacy knows in Hollywood and the conversations that go on out there, cause this is happening right now.

Speaker 3 (26:57):
Right, right. And that makes sense when you are selling. I mean, and Amazon, you know, sells a pretty high proportion of, you

Speaker 2 (27:06):
Know, books, everything of everything.

Speaker 3 (27:09):
So, yeah. So if you want your watch to be, you know, the thing that people are like looking to buy on Amazon, then yeah. It makes total sense. Right.

Speaker 2 (27:17):
I think they’re the best position. I know that you have other streamers from conversations have, that are positioning themselves to offer in show, um, brands being featured and sold with, um, you know, an instant on demand, click through, uh, ability to purchase. But Amazon’s the best situated to actually pull this off.

Speaker 3 (27:42):
So an a, a sort of Apple-like strategy, but with everything

Speaker 2 (27:48):
Way wider and they can replace anything. So any computer that would be in a scene could be swapped out in post-production for another brand, right. CPM and consumers, you know, they’re seeing the product placement, they’re seeing the brand to me. And to most people, you know, brands are actually providing a better story as well to the content because it’s, it sucks watching something. And you’re having a holding, you know, a can of six pack and it says beer on its face. And it should actually say like Budweiser or, you know, coolers or something. Cause it takes you out of the scene, takes you out of that sense of immersion and realism in it. I know I’m a big advocate of product placement. So there’s people who are out there going, nah, but you know, psychological studies kind of back me up on this, but Amazon with their content and their library with MGM and the amount of content they’re producing is opening themselves up to become a major advertising force that they’re going to unleash. I have a feeling in the very near future.

Speaker 3 (28:52):
Fascinating. I

Speaker 2 (28:56):
Don’t know what to say to that.

Speaker 3 (28:57):
I dunno what to say to that. I, I, I dunno what products you can place in Lord of the rings. You

Speaker 2 (29:01):
Can, you can, but you need people, right? You need content, you need it to be a content destination that people wanna come to. Um, and then, I mean, you could say that then you’re looking for the studio model of how do studios get their content seen by others, um, without having to pay, um, marketing dollars to do so. And a lot of times they’ll partner with big advertisers to do co-branded promotions and that’s something Amazons certainly can do to bring in the eyeballs and rev share going back and forth there. They’re not making hard dollars from that, but they are creating partnerships that are going to grow their visibility. So there’s some, there’s some natural partnerships I think, there that are happening with their content.

Speaker 3 (29:41):
Right. Right. And these are, these are things that, you know, apple is not very interested in promoting other people’s products,

Speaker 2 (29:50):
Just theirs,

Speaker 3 (29:51):
Netflix maybe is theirs Mostly about. Yeah. Um, and, uh, Disney is, I mean, about their promo, about promoting star wars and Marvel and Pixar.

Speaker 2 (30:05):
Well, I think Disney’s about promoting, like finding partners to promote theirs. Like they’ve had tremendous success, like creating massive, massive, um, co-branded promotional campaigns that, um, allow them not to have a whole lot of, um, below the, you know, marketing that they have having to do because they have, you know, 30 different extensions or brands who are like lazing about this production that are coming out.

Speaker 3 (30:33):
Right, right. Yes. So it sort of almost sort of flip flipped around the, uh, the burger king meal of, for the, you know, the

Speaker 2 (30:41):
Well Berg king and stranger things. Right. That was a good partnership that Netflix did. Right. Um, and that brought a lot of awareness and eyeballs to stranger things at a time that they were trying to do so, and to ramp up. And they were very selective about who they did a partnership with.

Speaker 3 (30:55):

Speaker 2 (30:56):
You’re like, how are we talking about placement? Now I was talking about numbers. And, but you know, this is my world where I get, so where do you think, like with the modeling this out there with some of the limited data like Netflix is very, very limited. All of the streamers are very limited in what they’ll actually share. And when you’re working with studios, you can work with, you know, other platforms that are, that are part of the process that are outside the studio, DS whole world to, you know, snag numbers from them. Uh, but do you see the streamers, keeping the lid on all this information as tightly as they happen?

Speaker 3 (31:33):
Well, I, I think that there’s, there’s quite a lot that we can glean from the streamers. And, and I, I will, you know, caveat this, that I haven’t looked at Netflix is new sites. So I don’t know, but they are, you know, they say they’re bringing more and more data out. Um, but even so, you know, you, you can see some trends. So for example, with, with Disney, they have a daily trending top 25 shows. And basically every single day, the Simpsons is like one of their top five. And, and often it’s like, like number two, title on, on Disney class. Um, there’s an Australian kids show called bluey, which, you know, nobody had ever heard of before Disney. I mean, I had never heard of before Disney class started, um, I should say, um, but is now, you know, often the number one show on Disney class, um, you know, obviously, you know, kids are discovering it and love it and, you know, and they want to watch it EV every day over

Speaker 2 (32:30):
And over and over and over and over and over, and

Speaker 3 (32:34):
Exactly, exactly. Um, so, you know, so we, we can see that, you know, Coca melons doing great on Netflix, you know, often in the top 10 on, on Netflix. Um, if you look on Netflix in the UK pepper pigs, you know, often in the top 10, and it’s normally the number one kids show that. So, you know, you can begin to see, you know, the fact that the Simpsons is, you know, beating black widow and Shachi on Disney plus tells you something about, you know, where Disney plus viewership is is at. Um, and so, you know, now we’ve been doing this for a year or so, we can begin to kind of see, you know, Netflix tends to have very sort of brief bursts of people getting very excited about a show, you know, we sort squid game, squid game. Exactly. Um, you know, and tiger king, um, you know, back and then Bridgeton, you know, and the crowd, right.

Speaker 3 (33:33):
Strange of things. So these shows, you know, they become kind of an obsession globally. Now SQUI game, you know, is globally a massive hit for, for Netflix, but for like two weeks. And then it’ll kind of, you know, disappear and Netflix, you know, tries to put the next thing out, you know, that’s going to be the big hit for them. Um, Disney, you know, is much more of a long game. And, you know, and as I say, if you look at their trending list, it’s always the Simpsons frozen, uh, Moana, um, you know, the same movies that kids love to watch over and over again, um, are the ones that just, you know, stick around on Disney plus, and then they can bring out a new season of the Mandalorian. And that can be, you know, a little bit sort of tr you know, behave a little bit more like a Netflix show that everyone’s, you know, tuning in every week and, you know,

Speaker 2 (34:25):
Yeah. The parents at least engaged.

Speaker 3 (34:27):
Right. Right. Um, but I think that’s a problem for net for, for Disney plus, um, that they, you know, with, you know, that sort of very specific focus that they have on particular brands, uh, um, you know, that, that, you know, becomes a little bit exhausting for speaking has grown up here. Um, one who plays one on in business meetings, um, you know, I’m kind of tired of Marvel TV shows. It’s not that I don’t enjoy them. It’s just that, you know, every week there’s, you know, every couple of months there’s a whole new one coming out that’s, um, you know, becoming, you know, and I think there’s a diminishing return for them on that, on that

Speaker 2 (35:09):
It’s not as special any longer.

Speaker 3 (35:10):
Right. Right. You know, in the way, you know, it took me a while to get into the Mandalorian, but I could see, you know, it was a new thing that they were really doing with, with star wars. Um, so, you know, that I think is, is the risk for Disney, whereas Netflix, I mean, you know, who would’ve said, you know, three months ago that, you know, this Korean like horror,

Speaker 2 (35:33):
Psychological, like it look inside for anyone who hasn’t watched. I mean, most of the people have to have watched, right. There’s 900 million people who have watched squid game or something like that, or households. So even more than that, but like, it’s a psychological intriguing look at society and humanity, and it’s so much more than just a shut if you actually dial in and get past the gore.

Speaker 3 (36:00):
Right. Right. I mean, and you know, who would’ve thought that that would be, Netflix’s big hit of the,

Speaker 2 (36:07):
Of the, I doubt they thought that.

Speaker 3 (36:09):
Right. Right. Um, but you know, these things can happen so quickly. I, I was talking to someone about TikTok yesterday and on TikTok, you know, things can become hits in like an hour. Um, so, you know, we’ve got, you know, this complete sort of upending of, of the way things, you know, are, are thought about for, you know, and I think Netflix is probably at the cutting edge of that. Disney is the sort of other extreme of very calculated, you know, over the next two years with going to bring out all of these things in the Marvel universe. And, you know, that’s gonna tell a new, you know, strand of that, of that story. Um, you know, HBO max is sort of, you know, between the two with, you know, trying to build out a DC extended universe, but at the same time wanting to, you know, just have, you know, hits and, you know, hit TV shows and so on.

Speaker 2 (37:00):
Yeah. I think it’s amazing what Netflix is doing that I think is really unique is they truly are doing the approach of the world as slack. They are the globalization of their content, the fact that they will do localized content that I’m willing to not listen to in some sort of transla, you know, badly transfer I, uh, content, but where I’m actually willing to stop what I’m doing. And I’m like a constant worker. I’m always on my computer working away in the evening, but I’m willing to stop it, put it aside and read captions in English in order to like, see this content that is blowing up all over the world. And that’s something that’s very new to Americans because we are not big into closed captioning. We’re not big into, um, trans you know, seeing, uh, watching something that’s in another language without being able to listen to it in English as well.

Speaker 3 (37:54):
Right. Right. And I think Netflix are beginning to kind of figure out their, their, their brand around that, um, that, um, you know, one of the things of course, you know, I don’t think I mentioned, but I grew up in England. Um, and

Speaker 2 (38:10):
No one could tell by your accent.

Speaker 3 (38:12):
No, I, I, I, I, I, I try to hide it, but, um, yeah. So, you know, so I watch shows that are set in, in England, on Netflix, you know, their, their originals, you know, like, you know, sex education for, for example,

Speaker 2 (38:27):
Which is awesome. Awesome stories,

Speaker 3 (38:28):
Great show. But I don’t really recognize it as being English when I, when I watch it. It’s they’ve and I’m, you know, and it’s deliberate and, and, you know, probably sensible from their perspective that they kind of want to trim off the edges. So you are not talking, you know, just about a British school. You’re talking about a school that could be really anywhere, but they sort of, you know, speak with English accents and they, you know, maybe there’s a little bit of, you know, talk about cups of tea. Um, but, um, it’s not, not a British school that they’re, that they’re going to, it’s a school that anybody anywhere in the world can recognize and sort of get the, you know, the conflicts between the kids and the way that the, you know, kids behave in school without being driven down the, you know, the root of here’s, you know, what the British educational system is, is like, um,

Speaker 2 (39:20):
Well, even Ali in which takes place in Spain, it’s the same way. Like, it’s very, very European, but American in many ways, it’s just, it it’s lacking of a distinct, local feel and flavor.

Speaker 3 (39:34):
Right, right. Um, and you know, and I think that, that, you know, speaks to the fact that the Netflix is trying to get, you know, their content to be, you know, a potential hit EV anywhere in, in the world. Um, you know, with some exceptions, you know, that maybe there are, you know, certain content isn’t going to, you know, they’re not even be able to broadcast in, you know, Saudi Arabia or, you know, it’s not gonna be, you know, a fit for, um, you know, different, different countries. Um,

Speaker 2 (40:03):
There’s always gonna be some countries that’s not gonna be a fit for.

Speaker 3 (40:06):
Right. Um, but they can at least say, well, this show, you know, and you know, the amount of money I, you know, I heard that, I think they’re spending half a billion dollars next year on Korean contents. Um, because they’ve discovered that Korean content can play phenomenally well around the world, you know, with squid game, but then also parasites, um, you know, the, the snow pier, which, you know, is a movie and then a, now a us TV show. Yeah. Um, you know, those, that, those kind of things that can come out South Korea can be a hit anywhere and, you know, and it makes perfect sense for them to say, well, okay, we’ll trim off the edges a little bit. So it’s not so, you know, deeply embedded in south Korean culture that, you know, no one can understand, you know, what’s going on outside of, um, outside of Korea. Um, but that, you know, opens up the possibility of making it successful anywhere.

Speaker 2 (40:59):
It’ll be interesting to see if they decide to take a bend on like squid game, which is South Korea, but you could just as easily have a squid game version in Italy or a squid game version in Canada, or anywhere for what the context of the storyline is and how they have Americans. Of course, it’s add us in Americans, um, driving the storyline of being the funders for everything. So hopefully you’ve seen this by now and I haven’t given away a secret.

Speaker 3 (41:25):
Right. Well, I mean, we we’ll, we’ll see, I guess, um, you know, whether they say, well, you know, just why, why we make it, um, you know, when everybody’s watched the Korean version anyway, and, and, you know, and we’ve learned that we can get, you know, this, this level of engagement yeah. Without trying to make, you know, six vote, different versions of this, of this show. Um,

Speaker 2 (41:49):
Yeah, it’s fascinating. Well, Bruce, how can people find out more about the numbers and all of your resources and your subscriptions and all those good things. If they’re like me who are like data friendly, people who just hunger for numbers?

Speaker 3 (42:05):
Well, so, uh, if you go to the numbers.com, um, then you will find all of our box office tracking and our DVD ECE and Blueray sales tracking. And we, we put up the Netflix daily, top 10 there. Um, so that’s kind of our, our so free, um, and, you know, for consumer use, uh, and then, um, our data services are through data. So if you go to data.com, um, and, and sign up there, then we’ll, you know, set you up with a, um, you know, a trial subscription. Um, that’s mostly for people who are really in the big data world. So it’s available via API, and we’re expecting, you know, mostly to be working with people who are, um, you know, in the, sort of in the software world. Um, and then, uh, the, if you go to the numbers and, um, click on, uh, right now it says our services, um, uh, we’re actually just updating the site, but we’ll, uh, um, uh, we’ll still have something which probably says very similar to that, um, where you can then, you know, get more information on our research services, which we do for individual projects and, um, for individual clients, uh, and, um, you know, email us and let us know what you need, and we’ll see if we can help.

Speaker 2 (43:24):
Well, Bruce, thank you so much for joining and shedding. Some more light on all things, math and data and metrics and Hollywood. I really enjoyed myself.

Speaker 3 (43:34):
Uh, this has been fun. Thank you, Stacy. I really enjoyed it. Thanks again, having me,

Speaker 2 (43:38):
Of course, and to all of our listeners, thank you for tuning into another episode of marketing mistakes and how to avoid them. We didn’t really talk about mistakes today, but we did talk about your passion of film and content what’s happening out there and is a mistake. If you miss the fact that numbers tell stories. So there’s my mistake for you for the day and until next week, I hope you have a good one. And if you have any questions about product placement and influencer marketing and how your brand can get and become part of the story itself, please reach out to my team and will be happy to connect and talk some more, have a great one.

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Marketing Mistakes and How To Avoid Them Reviews 

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This should be required listening for everyone who owns a business, works in marketing, or is interested in the business of entertainment. Great stuff!

The Best Marketing Podcast Ever!

Stacy is a brilliant branding strategist and she really knows how to bring out the best in her guests! This show is fun AND educational! If you’re looking to understand the world of marketing, branding, digital marketing, influencer marketing and more, look no further. This show has awesome insight into some of the greatest marketing minds out there today, and they provide practical advice you can use in your business today. #FanForLife

Awesome podcast for all marketers!

Keep them coming

Practical and pointed advice.

Stacy does a really great job making this a highly actionable podcast for business owners. With a focus on marketing, she covers a wide range of related topics as well and is always very specific with her questions so that the listener gets pointed advice instead of vague concepts to take away. It’s also really helpful to the hear the why behind any marketing tactic so that we can decide if something sounds like a good fit for where we are at in this moment.

Love this marketing podcast!

Lori has a way of finding new insights to share every week. I loved being a guest, but I enjoy hearing her many fascinating conversations with other marketers even more. Great show!

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I absolutely loved being on this podcast! Stacey is amazing – real, down to earth, and genuinely curious and interested in learning – this makes for a very engaging conversation and valuable podcast!

Thank you for your podcast! I LOVE IT

I just listened to the episode named Insights To Product Placement Brand Marketers Need To Know, and I really enjoyed every minute of it! There are so many ways to approach product placement in a manner that provides wins for many – and it is not always driven by money. I am looking forward to listening to more!

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Anyone who is in business should be listening to this podcast! Incredible insights and advice.

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This is one of the most insightful podcasts that I have ever come across! Stacy does such a great job of sharing her wisdom and I love how she leads meaningful conversations with guests who bring so much experience to the table. Highly recommend checking this show out – you won’t be disappointed!

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Stacy, host of the Marketing Mistakes (And How To Avoid Them) Podcast, highlights all marketing and more in this can’t miss podcast! The host and expert guests offer insightful advice and information that is helpful to anyone that listens!
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