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Transcript For This Episode:
Welcome to Marketing Mistakes And How To Avoid Them. I’m Stacy Jones, the founder of influencer marketing and branded content agency, Hollywood Branded. This podcast provides brand marketers, a learning platform for topics, for us to share their insights and knowledge on topics, which make a direct impact on your business today, while it is impossible to be well versed on every topic and strategy that can improve bottom-line results. My goal is to help you avoid making costly mistakes of time, energy, or money, whether you are doing a DIY approach or hiring an expert to help. Let’s begin today’s discussion.Announcer (00:31):
Welcome to Marketing Mistakes And How To Avoid Them. Here’s your host, Stacy Jones.Stacy Jones (00:36):
Welcome to Marketing Mistakes And How To Avoid Them, I’m Stacy Jones. I’m so happy to be here with you all today, and I want to give a very warm welcome to Jay Scott Christianson. Scott is an Assistant Teaching Professor of Management at Missouri’s Trulaske College of Business, where his interests are focused on the impact of technology on society and human wellbeing.
Previously, Scott was a business owner with decades of experience in emerging technologies, including video conferencing, Push management, and IT, where Scott’s continued to work on hundreds of projects and remains actively involved in information technology initiatives and startups.
Today, we’re going to talk about how businesses can use artificial intelligence and marketing practices. We’ll learn what’s been working from Scott’s perspective, what should be avoided and how some businesses are currently missing the mark. Scott, welcome. So happy to have you here today.
Scott Christianson (01:22):
Thank you so much for having me, Stacy.
Stacy Jones (01:24):
I’m so happy to have you here [inaudible 00:01:26] today and I’ve had my own technology [inaudible 00:00:01:28]. I’m looking forward to chatting technology and AI, and how it’s here to make our life better even when there’s bumps along the way.
Scott Christianson (01:38):
Well, that sounds great. AI is affecting us in a lot of ways, we may not really even understand. From all those recommendations for what to watch on Netflix, while we’re sheltered in place during this COVID epidemic to what we’re buying on Amazon, to all sorts of new emerging technologies that may affect our future in manufacturing and supply chain in all sorts of areas of business.
Certainly that also applies to marketing and certainly marketing platforms like Facebook, which are highly effective, not only because they have a lot of good data, but they know how to chew on that data. When we say AI, what we’re really usually talking about this thing called Machine learning, where a machine can recognize the pattern. So they know that, if Scott’s online at 11 o’clock at night, maybe he’s had a glass of wine and he’s right to buy something. Maybe we can show some ads for some fancy new watches and maybe he’ll be taken in by that.
But one of the things that I’ve been thinking about in coming up for this podcast is, what would it be like if I was back running my business, when something like this was to happen? I’m actually transferred into a relatively safe job, certainly universities and colleges have a lot of disruption now, but being a business owner, I think has prepared me for being ready for disruption. So, I’m able to go along with the flow, but [inaudible 00:03:13] relatively stable position there.
I’m thinking about when I was starting my business, if I had just launched my business, when this COVID pandemic started, what tools would I use to try and survive? And so I looked around and I found a couple that are kind of interesting that use AI and that small businesses might be able to use to improve their business. Now, one of the things that I had to do when I was first starting was to make cold calls and I’m sure you’ve had to do that as well.
Stacy Jones (03:43):
Scott Christianson (03:44):
And that’s not always the fun aspect of owning a business. Right?
Stacy Jones (03:49):
There’s very few people who actually like making cold calls in life and more power to them. They get a lot of heat on that other end of the line, yes.
Scott Christianson (03:57):
If you can suffer some rejection, if you can suffer that anticipation of rejection. So sometimes it’d be nice to know a little bit more about the personality of the person you’re trying to call. And so there’s an interesting site, it’s called Crystal Knows like crystal, like the gem and then knows like you know something. What this website does or what this company does is they actually go to your LinkedIn profile or a person’s LinkedIn profile and they try to analyze what does this person like, based on what other people that are similar to them are like, so uses this machine learning algorithm to…
Stacy Jones (04:41):
I’m madly typing this down myself so I can look at it while you’re talking.
Scott Christianson (04:45):
Yes. So you can find out a little bit about who you’re going to call before you actually make that phone call. So certainly can connect on LinkedIn. Now I did this on you, I kind of stalked you a little bit.
Stacy Jones (04:56):
Great, bring it on.
Scott Christianson (04:58):
[crosstalk 00:04:58] artificial intelligence, and it says here, Stacy Jones is persuasive and charismatic, often able to communicate a bold vision to others. She’s adventurous and visionary. Now what’s kind of interesting too, is that they try to come up with some things that you can say to Stacy. What comes naturally to Stacy, whilst she gets bored fairly easily. She likes to make decisions quickly with gut instinct and sticks to the big picture vision of what’s going on. Now-
Stacy Jones (05:35):
That’s very scary.
Scott Christianson (05:38):
I don’t know if that… Does that…
Stacy Jones (05:38):
It’s spot on so far, yes. And I will tell you this, we have… And [Inaudible 00:05:44] probably dive in even deeper. We have sales software that we use and I’ve always scoffed at it because it has something built into this. And it’s like, Charles is so and so, he’s this way and he is that way. I’m like, yeah right. Like they really know what Charles is. Well, maybe they do, okay.
Scott Christianson (06:02):
Right. Once again this machine learning algorithm, it’s interesting because it gets better and better. The more it goes long. So if we were using this for sales calls, I would also provide it some feedback, this is correct or not. Now it says here, if I was trying to make a pitch to you, that I might want to tell a story. So I might not want to give you all the technical specs about some new video camera, something like that. You’re not going to be energized by that. But if I tell you Stacy, this is going to make your story somewhat much more real and things like that, you might be much more interested.
Stacy Jones (06:36):
Scott Christianson (06:38):
What drains you, rigid inflexible schedules, overly factual lackluster discussions. Now some of this, when we hear it, it may be a little bit of a confirmation bias, because my profile said I was easy-going, and I would like to think I’m easy-going. You might want to ask some of my students, especially after you finished your finals last week-
Stacy Jones (07:05):
Whether or not that’s true.
Scott Christianson (07:06):
[inaudible 00:07:06] easy going or not. But there were some things in there, like it says, Scott likes to work alone. Don’t pressure him to make a decision. And I found that to be very true. If I get pressured to make a decision, I’ll just walk away from a sale or something like that. I think these are interesting tools, that if you are having to make cold calls, even if this isn’t a hundred percent accurate, it lets you put a little bit of a model in your mind of the person that you’re talking to, and how you might be able to get to know them a little bit before you actually interact with them.
Stacy Jones (07:41):
This could even be really great for new teams that you have and you’re hiring on. Obviously there’s Myers-Briggs, there’s all these different personality tests that you can take out there. But this sounds like this is software that you could apply to HR potentially as well, to get some insights on the teams you’re building internally.
Scott Christianson (07:59):
And that’s actually the founders of this company. They had started a company before and they did some bad hires and their company kind of fell apart because of that. And so they decided that they really need to dig deep into why do teams work together? How do you build a team up? Who do you really want to hire? So that’s why they started with LinkedIn, but have been moving into some other areas where they’re being able to help companies build these teams up.
Stacy Jones (08:28):
That’s very cool. And yeah, they have their whole… They’ve written a book predicting personality. So this is what they do inside and out, very cool. Well, thank you for sharing that.
Scott Christianson (08:37):
Yeah, no problem. There’s a couple of other ones that I thought might be of interest to your audience, especially those that have a small business or starting out, or maybe having to restart their business after this whole pandemic thing. There’s another one, that another student found and showed me called FirstRain, and it’s of interesting. What they do is they go out and they try to profile companies, so they basically scrape the internet and they look at different companies. So they would find your company and they might find my company. And they’re going to try and analyze all the information that’s posted about those companies. And then what they’re going to try to do is match that with your service or your product and say, okay, of the companies that you could approach here are the top rank ones that are going to have, a need that’s going to fit what you’re going to be selling, or maybe in a demographic that is going to fit what you need as far as the size of the company.
For my business, we in mainly for small and midsize businesses, we didn’t go after very big corporate accounts because we’d be competing directly with Cisco and other big companies, and we just didn’t have the resources to do that. So I really wanted to cherry pick those really good small companies, that I could market to and we would provide substantial value to, which they’d be willing to pay for. So that’s another way that another company, and I think there’s going to be more and more of these. There’s another one called Seamless AI, that does the same sort of thing. Where it’s kind of a lead generation database, but they’re using AI to try and identify what are the best leads and how to approach those leads.
Stacy Jones (10:18):
What we’ll be doing is putting all of these companies that you’re naming in our podcast notes, so that people can actually refer to them and get the links directly. So thank you for that too.
Scott Christianson (10:31):
You’re welcome. I would say the other thing that you can look at is, there’s lots of other software such as Salesforce, which you may be familiar with, that these systems integrate with. So if you’re needing to populate your Salesforce database with new leads, if you’re looking at… While you’re more the expert on the marketing, probably we don’t do mailings anymore, but if you’re looking at how to separate out those demographic groups, that’s a good way to get a good start. Is to look at some of these systems that can use AI and then feed that into Salesforce and these other tools.
Stacy Jones (11:09):
Yeah, I’m sure there’s that automation processes where they link in together through Zapier or something like that, where can speak to each other.
Scott Christianson (11:16):
Yeah, exactly. The only thing that I would put a little caution on is, we have to always realize with AI that it kind of adheres to this old computer science principle of garbage in garbage out, if you remember that. So, if we train it with the data that may have a bias, then we may end up with an AI that has a little bit of a bias as well. So sometimes we want to be a little bit careful to still have that kind of human expert knowledge to check with what’s going on, because we may find that we’re kind of limiting ourselves by these AIs, certainly they can be a great tool, but when it comes to certain things, such as in my area of higher education recruitment, we might want to think outside the box a little bit as far as how are we training these artificial intelligence systems.
Stacy Jones (12:11):
So what you’re saying is job security is still there for people because AI needs to be checked.
Scott Christianson (12:16):
Yes, I think so. And I think also what we’re looking at is how do we work alongside AI? I know we talk a lot or we hear a lot about replacement of jobs with AI and there may be some of that going on. Certainly there’s some things that are easy to automate, that may eliminate certain jobs, but a lot of it is really going to be, how do we work alongside AI or how do we work alongside machine learning algorithm? Because this machine learning algorithm may not understand the strategy that our business has, so it can do something very narrow, but maybe we’re doing some things to enter a new market. We’re doing something that is… Maybe a machine learning algorithm isn’t going to optimize as well, because it doesn’t understand the strategy that we’re trying to do. So it’s very good at repeating and automating things, but that’s one of the things we need to think about.
Stacy Jones (13:19):
You spend your core time now, your days in and out with college students, and helping them understand what the future looks like and where… Specifically here, artificial intelligence plays a role and technology plays a role. What type of guidance are you giving them on the types of training and the knowledge that they need to be getting under their belt, to make them more marketable to the future, for the future businesses where people are listening in on our podcast today, how should people be actually approaching this now?
Scott Christianson (13:50):
There’s a couple things in there, one I do think you have to really be aware of what’s going on. One of the things that I do in my classes now, is I suggest they subscribe to some sort of daily newspaper. Like there’s the Daily Skimm or the Morning Brew, a number of these things [inaudible 00:14:12] at least summarize. If you’ve read any of those newsletters, it’s the same business news that you and I are getting in the Wall Street Journal, but it’s told in kind of a sarcastic, [inaudible 00:14:24] sarcastic is the best word, but a way that is accessible to students. And I-
Stacy Jones (14:32):
Bite size information.
Scott Christianson (14:33):
Bite size information. What’s the headline, what’s the first paragraph. You have to know what your environment is, in order to be able to react and succeed in that environment. Even though things are kind of scary and changing right now, you got to understand what’s going on. So that’s one, I always tell my students. I also tell my students… And that’s not necessarily just for AI or anything like that, but that they’re going to see the changes that are happening. But the other thing I tell my students is, you need to be the intersection of two different areas. Be the accountant that also really understands how to do visualization or be the IT guy that understands about… Is certified in global… Has a global supply chain certificate.
Looking at those places where there’s an overlap has always worked very well for me. For example, as you mentioned, I’m the teaching professor right now. I’m not the greatest professor in the world. I’m not the worst either. Now, I’m a technology guy, am I the greatest technology guy? No, but I’m not the worst. But there’s very few technology guys that also like to teach. And so being at that intersection makes me a more valuable commodity. And, that was the same way in my business. We specialize in video conferencing technology, and in the ’90s, when I started that there was companies that did audio visual work. And there were also companies that did networking work, but there were very few that were at that intersection. That was where video conferencing was. And so it worked very well for us because we had a nice niche.
Stacy Jones (16:18):
There was no Zoom back then.
Scott Christianson (16:19):
Yeah. I’m glad I’m out of the [inaudible 00:16:24] market now, the margins on selling something like Zoom would not be that great.
Stacy Jones (16:19):
Scott Christianson (16:31):
But yeah, so you have to be able to adapt with the time, you have to know what’s going on and trying to be that intersection. And I realized that doesn’t relate specifically to machine learning or AI, but I think that helps you with any field that’s changing. It also allows you to kind of hedge your bet a little bit. If you have your feet in two different kinds of fields, if something goes south on one, you have a little bit of a hedge on the other.
Stacy Jones (16:57):
I think also for those individuals who… Even if it doesn’t come naturally to them, if they can start looking, if they’re working and their future is going to be working in technology, because there’s not really many jobs or businesses or environments where technology doesn’t play a role nowadays. You don’t necessarily need to know how to do it on the backend, but you need to understand how dots are connected and what the results are supposed to be on the front-end, so that you can start looking for solutions of things that can be automated and things that can be made easier. And also just more so, not necessarily understand how to fix it if it breaks, but understand that there are fixes out there to make things run more smoothly. And those people are going to be more hire able.
Scott Christianson (17:45):
Yes. I think always looking for productivity shortcuts, that’s one of the things I also share with my students, is how I try to increase my productivity how I track things, because I think they think we have it all figured out as professors and we don’t have it all figured out. The other thing is to understand that you can do things. One of the things I do in one class is, we actually program Amazon Alexis. It only takes about 45 minutes to do that. You can do that if you have one at home Stacy, you can try this tonight. It’s about a 45 minute YouTube video, just search for how to program your Amazon Alexa. And you can make your own little program to have it say things, when you give it certain prompts. I think we’ve built up this idea that technology is really, really hard and maybe some of us technologists are to blame for that, but it’s actually much easier than it ever has been in the past.
Stacy Jones (18:46):
Yeah, if you take short cuts to that how to video by the way, and you try just to DIY at yourself, what happens is that the Alexis system, you have bought your mother and put it in all of her rooms in her house, so that she has an emergency and music or can listen to recipes, sometimes sends her your things instead. So that all of a sudden, my husband will ask for Alexa in the room to play some music, and it starts really loudly in her bedroom in the middle of the night or talking to her about something else. So technology has some interesting little tweaks along the way.
Scott Christianson (19:21):
Right. Well, it’s moving fast [crosstalk 00:19:23] doesn’t always… There’s a fast or perfect, and there’s always a trade off there.
Stacy Jones (19:29):
Well even with Alexa, there’s so much that businesses are missing out on. I know that when I started this podcast, that was one of the first things I figured out, how do I get my podcast on Alexa? And so I wanted to be part of morning briefings, I wanted to be able to have that opportunity. There’s just so many things in that whole world, that you can now do with your business. Where you can start having daily conversations with your customers at home, based on things that they’re looking for and skills that you’re setting up on the backend as well.
Scott Christianson (20:02):
And, even just starting to understand some of these tools that marketers are using. If you’re a small business like mine, maybe you don’t have a big marketing budget or have to do a lot of it yourself, DIY marketing, look at Google trends, get certified on Google analytics and learn how those professionals are doing that work. And that can also help you, and how you’re presenting things. If you know how people are searching for things, that’s going to help with your cold calls, with your scripts, other things like that, because we tend to sometimes operate in a little bit of a bubble. Especially as technologists, we tend to get in our little bubble and we like our technology and we don’t know how to talk about it with other people. We don’t know how to tell the story, about how it’s going to improve their lives or improve their businesses.
Stacy Jones (20:52):
Touching on social media, Facebook and Instagram, they have an AI structure built in for all of their advertising, right?
Scott Christianson (20:58):
Stacy Jones (21:00):
And so you just need to know who your demographic is and they will actually help you reach them. You don’t have to know all that much anymore to do that.
Scott Christianson (21:10):
Right. There’s a lot of training tools in all of these areas, Google and Facebook and Instagram, all those places have their particular tools and they have their pluses and minuses. And you can really figure out how to optimize the district distribution of your content. If you’re going to go through the trouble of actually making a YouTube video or making a ad or try to put a website together, you want to maximize that return on investment. Just a little tweak with understanding these tools, understanding how to communicate a little bit better. Understanding what’s trending now, is also really important.
Stacy Jones (21:51):
When you’re thinking AI and artificial intelligence, is that what would people still consider like with HubSpot, where you’re able to set up emails, where they’re on a schedule basis, and if your person responds to you, it breaks the schedule so that they’re not [inaudible 00:00:22:08], they’re like they respond, they buy. But the next email that is in the system gets cut off before it says, don’t you want to purchase? So these are smart systems built into software.
Scott Christianson (22:19):
Yes. A lot of it’s just looking at patterns, so you send out emails, you look at, okay here people that are in their 50s are opening this stuff early in the morning. Because, they’re getting up, they’re having their cup of coffee. The people in their 20s are opening it at night, or maybe at noon when they’re having lunch. So they’re not going to do that first thing in the morning. I think that what it does is just look at those patterns. The machine learning gets better, it learns what those patterns are and it can optimize. So HubSpot, MailChimp, they will send out emails at the most appropriate time for maximum openings. And they’ll even do it… If you get your email together well enough in advance, they’ll do it all around the world. So the people that are in Ukraine, get it at the time that’s optimized for people in Ukraine to open that email and people in Japan, get it at a different time.
Stacy Jones (23:21):
And they’re doing all of that from IP addresses because it has that insight over where those email addresses are actually connected.
Scott Christianson (23:28):
Exactly. And so just by taking a little bit more time and using some of these tools and learn how they can optimize processes like that, if you produce an email newsletter and you can get a 10% more open rate, and today, if you can get a 2% more sales rate, that’s going to mean a lot to your bottom-line and these [inaudible 00:23:48] any time really.
Stacy Jones (23:51):
What else do you teach your students that you think our listeners might be interested in?
Scott Christianson (23:56):
One of the things that we teach a lot is project management and it was really fun this past semester when we moved that all online. I do mean that not facetiously, because we were just about to talk about agile project management and how we can track things to our workflows. My students, I was very proud of them. They’ve stepped up to the plate and they decided that they would like to do the simulation that we normally do with Legos in person, or they build a city out of Legos for me. And they decided they want to do that in Minecraft. So they first had to teach me how to use Minecraft. And then I taught them Trello and a technique called Scrum to track the user stories of the different buildings and the different infrastructure that was needed in the city.
I played the role of the mayor, so it was my city they were building. We use Zoom and in combination with Minecraft Education Edition and they actually built this pretty fantastic city and very cooperatively. I was really impressed with it. We actually did a little video tour for our Dean. There’s a lot of things that were fun about that class, but we also learned a lot. We use Trello, which is an online tool that probably some people have heard of. It allows you to track your workflow.
Especially if you’re small business owner and you’re easily distracted, especially in these distracting times, it helps you kind of limit the work in progress. So you can prioritize, this is the thing I need to do. This is what I’m working on today. Okay, now I’ve got it done. Now I’m going to go pick the next thing. So it’s kind of a workflow process. Project management is the other big topic that I teach. In all of these courses that I teach, we get to explore emerging technologies like AI, like Smart Grid systems for our energy systems. We cover just a whole host of things.
Stacy Jones (26:00):
When you touch on Scrum, I know some of the people listening are like, I totally know what that is. And there’s other people that are like, what’s that, can you share a little bit more insight on that?
Scott Christianson (26:10):
Scrum is a one a framework that we can use to get work done in a way that’s very… I guess I could say very quick, as far as the time from when we start work to when we have at least something that’s working, that we can present to our customer. The idea is to get something completed, that our customer can use, or they can evaluate, maybe not getting everything completed. If you think about the way software projects used to be done in the past, you would write all these specifications, you’d then go analyze what that was going to mean. Then you’d go and program it and then you test it out and then you’d finally get it to your customer, that was called waterfall.
Stacy Jones (27:00):
If you ever did get it to the customer [crosstalk 00:27:00]-
Scott Christianson (27:00):
If you ever did that.
Let’s think about, if you were just even doing a website. If you were a website producer and you’re using that method for your customer, by the time you get down to the end there, where you present to your customer three months later, maybe the customer had some assumptions that you didn’t understand. Sometimes customers don’t know what they want until they see it or even know what they don’t want until they see it. So, now you’d have to go back and redo major parts of that. Also, the market may have changed.
Think about if you were designing a website for house rentals here in Columbia, Missouri, and you’d been contracted back in February and you came back in June, well, the world has changed as far as house rentals go. So we might need to have adapted and changed the length of contract, the way the cleaning’s done, all sorts of other stuff. So this idea of Scrum, is that what we’re going to do is maybe don’t get the entire website completed, but we take the high priority items for the customer. And we work on those and maybe a two week sprint, we call it and then we present that to the customer and they can say, “Oh my gosh, you’re totally on the right page with this part. Oh, wait I assumed everything was going to be red. Don’t you know I like red?”
Stacy Jones (28:27):
You’re like, “[inaudible 00:28:29] we liked blue, we got blue as a color.”
Scott Christianson (28:30):
[crosstalk 00:28:30] assumed you had a water company, it would be a blue. We thought that was a valid assumption, but apparently not. So now we can go back and fix that right away. And so then we go back for another two weeks and we pick the next highest priority items, as well as fixing anything from the last time. We go through, we do it again, we present it to the customer.
We actually find that this will take less total time. There’ll be less rework and you can start providing value earlier. Let’s say, after that first two weeks of work, I said, “Oh my gosh, Stacy, that’s great. I know we’ve got this quick tweaks to make, but would you please go ahead and release this website because I can start getting some customers now.” Same, sort of thing with marketing campaigns, let’s design something, let’s test it now, this is good enough to test.
Let’s do some AB testing or multi-variant testing while we’re getting the rest of this ready. So there’s just a lot of value to using Scrum and to using various agile techniques. Once again, it’s not too hard, and if you are interested in any of these things, there are professional organizations in North America there’s the Project Management Institute and I’m sure they have local chapters. They have a local chapter here in Columbia, that do training that have experts that you can network with and learn about this.
Stacy Jones (29:51):
There’s certainly a lot of books written on the subject.
Scott Christianson (29:51):
Stacy Jones (29:56):
Lot of books have titles with… Including Scrum now, [inaudible 00:30:00] days, that I’ve seen. Yes.
Scott Christianson (30:02):
I always steal a quote that I think is from Picasso, but it’s been attributed to other people as well. He said that… He was accused one time of stealing the style of another artist. And he said, “Exactly good artists borrow great artists steal.” And I always say, good project managers borrow great project managers steal. And so you’re starting to see people that will kind of hybridize. So let’s say, okay we’re going to use Scrum for this, but I still want to use those traditional kind of risk management approach for this project, because I have some other things I’m concerned about or stakeholder management approach. So too many times we get locked in this idea that you’re going to do it this way or this way or this way, what you got to do is just going to steal the best ideas.
Stacy Jones (30:47):
Yeah. I think that’s a good rule to live life by, pretty much. Let someone else do your learning for you, take it on and run with it and then improve it.
Scott Christianson (30:57):
Stacy Jones (30:57):
This has been awesome thank you so much, for all of your insights and sharing. It’s very scary, what you first dug up as far as the accuracy of the person you described is indeed me. So thank you for that too, I have another software tool, I’m going to have our team checkouts.
Scott Christianson (31:16):
Okay, very good. Thank you so much.
Stacy Jones (31:17):
Of course. And then how, if people ever have questions, if they want to get in touch with you, and we’ll put it in the show notes as well. How can they reach out to you and learn more?
Scott Christianson (31:26):
They can reach me on my website, which is christiansonjs.com. And I also have a little newsletter there. If their interested, it’s nothing advertisement or anything like that. It’s just things like this that I discover, I just share with former students and colleagues. And so, it’s kind of my way to keep sharing in this time of isolation.
Stacy Jones (31:49):
That’s very cool. Thank you so much, any last words of parting advice.
Scott Christianson (31:55):
Just stay safe. I think we should all be very grateful for what we have in these times. I know we all get very stressed out, very worried about things, but I’m very, very grateful for all that I have and all the people that love me and then all the people that I get to love.
Stacy Jones (32:13):
Wow, that is a lovely sentiment. Thank you.
Scott Christianson (32:15):
Stacy Jones (32:17):
So again, thank you so much, Scott for joining us today and to all of our listeners thank you for tuning into Marketing Mistakes And How To Avoid Them. I look forward to chatting with you on our next podcast.
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