Hollywood Branded Refresher Episodes
Check out some of the past episodes we’ve covered on this topic:
- EP 203: How to Make Your Website Grow with Drew Barton | Southern Web
- EP 267: Better Your Brand By Building Your Visuals: The Importance of Great Graphics With Katie Dooley | Paper Lime Creative
- EP 265: Making The Most Of Marketing Automation: How To Leverage Salesforce and HubSpot With Lauren Kennedy | Coastal Consulting
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- The CIA: A Case Study In Rebranding
- Tech You Need To Better Market Your Brand
- 6 Tips For Businesses To Reach Generation Z
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Welcome to Marketing Mistakes and How To Avoid Them. I’m Stacy Jones, the founder of Influencer Marketing and branded content agency, Hollywood Branded. This podcast provides brand marketers a learning platform for topics, first to share their insights and knowledge on topics, which make a direct impact on your business today. While it is impossible to be well-versed on every topic and strategy that can improve bottom-line results, my goal is to help you avoid making costly mistakes of time, energy, or money, whether you are doing a DIY approach or hiring an expert to help. Let’s begin today’s discussion.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
Welcome to Marketing Mistakes and How To Avoid Them. Here’s your host, Stacy Jones.
Stacy Jones (00:35):
Welcome to Marketing Mistakes and How To Avoid Them. I’m Stacy Jones and I’m so happy to be here with you all today, and I want to give a very warm welcome to Wayne Mullins. Wayne is the founder and CEO of Ugly Mug Marketing, a marketing agency that helps entrepreneurs drive results through exceptional marketing, branding, social media and website design. Wayne’s nickname is the guru’s guru and he is regularly called upon for advice from industry leading CEOs, New York Times bestselling authors and Silicon Valley startups.
Over the last 12 years, Wayne’s worked with clients across 90 industries and influenced over a quarter of a million entrepreneurs annually through his blog, books and training programs. Today, Wayne and I have going to be chatting about how to elevate your brand’s marketing. We’ll learn what works from Wayne’s perspective, what should be avoided and how some businesses miss the mark. Wayne, thank you so much for joining us today. So happy to have you here.
Wayne Mullins (01:34):
Thank you so much. I’m looking forward to our conversation, Stacy.
Stacy Jones (01:37):
Perfect. Well, what everyone doesn’t know is Wayne has this big smile on his face right now because I mangled his introduction and I’m going to be rerecording so that you guys don’t hear a mangled introduction. What I’d like to do is start off by you sharing what got you to here today? How are you leading a marketing agency that has such a generalized focus but really specialized within the digital space?
Wayne Mullins (02:03):
Sure, absolutely. So the journey actually began just out of college. So when I left college I wanted to go and sell, so got a job selling advertising. I sold billboards for a national company. After about three years of that job, I started looking at my paycheck and looking at the amount of money I was making, that I was bringing in from the company and this terrible idea occurred to me. What if I actually did something for myself? What if I actually took my sales ability and went out and sold something for myself?
So that was the idea. I sat down to really figure out what skills, what products, what do I have that I could actually sell? And Stacy, the list was short. It was one thing and that was lawn care. I knew how to cut grass. So much to the dismay of my parents, I left a wonderful corporate sales job making really good money to start at zero cutting grass.
And for those not familiar with Louisiana, Louisiana summers are not the most pleasurable places to work outside. A little hot, a little warm, a little humid. Exactly. So over the course of that next three-year period, I took that company from zero and grew it to a very large size and sold the company. But it was during the course of that growth over that three-year period, that a lot of the clients for the lawn company, a lot of my friends started coming to me and asking for advice. They were asking, “How are you growing? How are you scaling? What are you doing to take your company from zero to where it is today?” And it was really out of those initial conversations, Stacy, that Ugly Mug Marketing would eventually be born.
Stacy Jones (03:49):
That is fantastic because most people do not take lawn care side jobs that you might do while you’re growing up and turn it into an actual professional and successful business.
Wayne Mullins (04:02):
Yeah, it was honestly, it was just out of necessity. I could sell and I wanted to sell something for myself. And that was the only all growing up, through, through high school, through college, I cut grass in the summer. So it just seemed like a perfect match.
Stacy Jones (04:18):
Well, I think you just said something that’s really important and it’s something I talk with our team about often. You said you can sell. If you’re a natural salesperson, if you can naturally engage with people, if you can recognize what the market wants, if you can truly be an innate marketer you can sell anything. It doesn’t matter what the gizmo, the product is, it’s about the passion that you’re putting behind your business so that at the end of the day you’re successful.
Wayne Mullins (04:51):
Yeah. No, that’s spot on. So right. And what I learned though over that course of transitioning from selling, at corporate jobs selling and then into a business of my own, what I learned was that if you became good at marketing, this mystical, mysterious thing called marketing, it made the sales job almost not necessary, right? So if you market yourself, well, if you market your company, your product, your service well, there’s no need to convince people. There’s no need to beg people. There’s no need to have the 14 different types of closes.
And so that’s what I discovered during the course of that period, was that by honing my marketing skills and really focusing on marketing, sales became almost unnecessary. We didn’t even have to sell because they heard about us. They saw our marketing. They saw our branding. So they were calling us, it wasn’t us having to go knock on doors.
Stacy Jones (05:43):
That’s awesome. So, okay, you sell your business and now you are like, “What am I going to do now?” When your go-to was I’m going to help everyone who was asking me for the last three years how I did this so that they can market their own companies.
Wayne Mullins (05:59):
Yeah, that’s exactly right. So I started helping along the way. So some clients of the lawn care company, I started meeting with some of those business owners and actually helping them put together strategies, and helping them figure out what to do with this mysterious thing called marketing. And then really it was out of those initial conversations, out of those initial interactions with those people that I decided that starting a marketing agency would be the thing to do.
However, my ego was very large at the time. I was 26 years old when I sold that company. I took it from scratch to a very large company, sold it at the age of 26 and so I thought no one could defeat me. I thought I knew all the answers to this thing called marketing. But over the next three years of starting Ugly Mug Marketing, I learned the hard way that I really didn’t know as much as I thought.
Stacy Jones (06:57):
And what were some of the areas that you didn’t know that you thought that you had more foundational knowledge in?
Wayne Mullins (07:04):
Sure. So whenever I had the lawn care company we relied very heavily on direct response marketing. That was one of our primary methods of marketing. And so when the people would come to me as the lawn care owner, right, they were coming to me saying, “Hey, we see what you’re doing. We see how well it’s working. Help us do the same thing.”
Well then when I no longer have that business and I’m a marketer, right, have a marketing agency, it’s no longer people knocking on my door coming to say, “How are you growing this lawn care company?” It’s them saying here’s the things we want to do. We want to advertise this way or we want to do television this way or we won’t do radio, whatever it may be. And I was so stubborn and so full of pride and ego that I would try to convince them that what they were doing was wrong.
I would try to convince them that there’s a better way. There’s this different way. There’s these other things. And what I learned the hard way was that you can’t push people outside of their box, outside of their comfort zone. And I was trying to take them from a very comfortable, traditional advertising mindset, marketing mindset, to all these other things that they were just uncomfortable with. And so I learned that the hard way that it’s better to sell people what they want and then give them what they need versus trying to sell them what they need and yet they don’t realize they need it.
Stacy Jones (08:30):
That makes a lot of sense. And when you say, “It’s better to sell someone what they think they want and give them what they need.” Do you literally mean give them, or is it that you’re building into the strategy where they might not be as cognizant? And you’re supporting the efforts and you’re building this campaign with all the nuggets that you know are actually going to make the sale happen.
Wayne Mullins (08:53):
Yeah, that’s exactly it. It’s more about weaving into the existing. So it’s maybe when we start out maybe it’s 90% of what they’re super comfortable with. With just a little bit of these fringe things that they’re unfamiliar with woven into this and then slowly over time, really just let the results speak for themselves.
Stacy Jones (09:15):
And then eventually my assumption is that 90% that you started with, will eventually shift to a flip. Where 90% is actually the cool, innovative ideas that you know are going to work, but they have to actually soft step into that in order to actually make that transition happen.
Wayne Mullins (09:33):
Yeah, that’s exactly right.
Stacy Jones (09:35):
And then you have two main focuses in the digital world that you were saying with social media and website building. It makes perfect sense to me that you all are an agency that does both, because they’re so combined into what they are and who they are and how they work. But there’s a lot of agencies who only do social media and there’s a lot of agencies who only do website design. Can you share a little bit more about why the bridge of those two coming together is so important?
Wayne Mullins (10:06):
Sure, absolutely. So let’s start with the web. So, one of the things that we believe about websites is that a website is nothing more than a tool. Just like you were to go to your toolbox, you open your toolbox and you pull out whatever tool comes to mind, a hammer, a screwdriver, whatever it may be, that is all your website is. And yet after having built now over 700 custom websites for clients, what we know to be true still today is that when they come to us, most often people come thinking that this new website is going to somehow magically or radically transform their business or their organization.
And so we have to do a lot of talking through and coaching people down from this level of expectation that, no a website is just a tool. It’s not like the if you build it, they will come type of thing. It requires work to actually make this thing useful and so that is where it that bridge began.
So the bridge began by the conversation with clients saying, “Look, just because you have the newest, the latest, the greatest website, responsive and it’s got the cool whatever things that you want on it, that doesn’t mean that it’s going to be an effective tool for your business and your organization.” And so it was about taking the website and then showing them how to couple that tool with some other tools, social media, and putting those two tools together to in turn, start building a very strategic marketing plan.
Stacy Jones (11:45):
And then what is the area that most companies, when they’re coming to you, besides thinking that the website is going to be their hail Mary and everyone’s going to come driving to it, and Google is just going to serve it up magically and make your numbers just hot, what are some of the mistakes people make along the way there?
Wayne Mullins (12:10):
Sure. I would say the number one mistake is they buy into what we would call vanity metrics. So in the marketing world lots of metrics get thrown around, impression, reach, visitors, bounce rate. I mean, you know the Western listeners often know this list. And what we know to be true in our heart is that oftentimes these metrics are nothing more than vanity metrics if they are not tied to something more.
So in other words, if we have a website that gets a hundred thousand visitors, is that a good thing or a bad thing, right? It sounds great. If your website today is getting 10,000 and we tell you, “We’ve got this other client who’s getting a 100,000, you think, wow, that’s 10X. That’s amazing. That’s phenomenal. But the reality is, the people could be staying on that site for two seconds and bouncing off the site. The reality is we could be sending the wrong traffic to the site. I mean, there’s all these other things.
And so I think that we have to be very careful about getting wrapped up into all of these, as we would call, vanity metrics without really understanding what is the end that we are after? And so for the bulk of our clients they’re for profit. And so the end result that they are after is more money in the bank account, right?
And we then have to figure out what metrics matter most and are more indicative? In other words, they lead the way, they showed the way to the end result, to the money in the bank account. And those metrics become the lead metrics. The money in the bank account becomes a lag metric. And only if those lead metrics are putting money into that lag metric, do the front-end lead metrics even matter for us.
Stacy Jones (14:05):
So you’re very results oriented at the end of the day, that’s what you’re looking at.
Wayne Mullins (14:10):
Yeah, absolutely. That’s where we have, if you will, made our distinction in the marketplace is we don’t focus on metrics really at all other than the core end-result metrics that the client’s after. We also don’t do what we would call checklist marketing, meaning we have a long checklist of, okay, did we post 10 times? Did we send out three emails? Did we X, Y, and Z down the list? And okay, great, we’re successful. Our reputation is built on just that, which is the ability to get results.
Stacy Jones (14:49):
And what are some of the other mistakes that happen along the way there? So right now your first one is that people are focused potentially not at the end result of setting up the wrong metrics, the vanity metrics that you said. What is another issue that people typically have with websites?
Wayne Mullins (15:08):
Yeah. Another metric specifically with websites that I would say is that they build their website based on what a competitor has done. So I’m going to tell you right now, we build a lot of custom websites. And the number one reason that people call us wanting a new website, they don’t initially say this but in conversation we find this out, is because a competitor of theirs just got a new website.
Stacy Jones (15:35):
It’s better. It’s prettier. It’s easier.
Wayne Mullins (15:38):
Yeah, it does all the shiny things, all the cool things and ours looks terrible now and so we need a new website. And so the other mistake would simply be that, it’s playing the me-too game, right. Competitor over here got a new website so, oh, me too, we need a new website or that even trickles down into advertising or into marketing. It’s like, oh well, competitor over here is in this publication or is doing this on social, so me too, we’ve got to be doing that.
And so that me-too game comes from, I believe, another mistake that we make and that is the confusion of actions versus assets. And so what I mean by that is when we look around at our competitors and we see competitor A is posting on their Facebook page three times a day, we say, “Okay, well they’re successful. Their page looks great. They have decent engagement, so we need to post three times a day.”
Stacy Jones (16:32):
Or five and do it better.
Wayne Mullins (16:35):
Yeah, we’ve got to one-up them. If you can’t beat us, we’re going to show them. So what we then do is we start copying, right? We play the me-too game, but what we fail to look at would be what are the actual assets? What is the asset that that person is actually building? And so when we identify the underlying asset, which in their case may be a responsive audience on Facebook, we may choose to play the game differently based on our skills and our abilities based on that asset.
So if they’re great at taking phenomenal photos for Instagram but we suck at photos, but we’re really good at video, right? So when we play that copy game we got to make sure that we understand the underlying asset, a responsive audience, a big email list, a responsive email list, more high-quality web traffic. What is the underlying asset that we’re actually building?
Stacy Jones (17:29):
And then what about with social media besides saying that three posts versus five post world that I was joking about? What are some of the other areas that people make just normal mistakes in?
Wayne Mullins (17:43):
Sure. I would say the biggest mistake, Stacy, that people make when it comes to social media is they’re under the illusion that they’re actually doing social media. I would argue that the vast majority of people aren’t actually doing social media, instead, what they’re doing is digital media. So the difference between the two is. This digital media means you show up on whatever platform it is or all the platforms, and you show up with a megaphone. You treat the platform as a billboard, a place to put up all your signs, all your things that you’re trying to tell the world or tell your audience. The flip side of that is social media and social by definition means a dialogue, it means an interaction, it means two-way communication. So digital is about a megaphone, show up and throw up and then social is about dialogue, it’s a telephone.
And so where I think so many people make mistakes is they come to whatever platform it may be, social media platform, and they start showing up and throwing up. They’re putting their message up there. They’re doing all the things, they’re taking all the actions and then they’re complaining that there’s no interactions. There’s no likes, there’s no comments, there’s no shares, there’s no dialogue.
And the reason is until we first show up from the mindset that we’re going to treat this as a dialogue, we’re going to treat this as a social interaction, we can expect our audience to reciprocate that. Right. So if we’re just showing up spewing stuff out, why do we expect them to engage in dialogue with us? We can’t and we shouldn’t so that’s an important distinction between those two, I think.
I think it’s a really good example because most people are not social. Well people are social but most brands are not social.
Yeah, absolutely. It’s a matter of showing up not just on your page but showing up in your followers pages. So you see a follower who just had a birthday, show up in their page,, show up on their page, wish them a happy birthday. They had an anniversary, wish them a happy anniversary. Their kid just hit a home run at the tee-ball game last night, show up on their pages. Show that you care, show that you’re interested. Show that you want a relationship, that you want a dialogue, not just for them to only hear what you have to say.
Stacy Jones (20:08):
And this would apply to both B2C and B2B brands, correct?
Wayne Mullins (20:13):
Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely.
Stacy Jones (20:15):
I think, especially in the B2B world, we forget that other person looking at our stuff is actually a consumer at the end of the day. That they’re going home, putting their feet up on the couch, having a beer, eating a pizza, talking to their wife, their husband, their children, their friends, going out. They’re still making decisions on a day-to-day basis to purchase, but it’s not like they change their hat and say, “I now am going to be a corporate person and now I’m just going to be me.”
Wayne Mullins (20:47):
Yeah. No that’s so true. I love the phrase, I don’t know who originally said it, but businesses don’t do business with other businesses, people do business with other businesses. So just like you said, it’s a person on the other end of that decision. We’re B2B with what we do but it’s always about those relationships and those people within the organizations that we’re dealing with.
Stacy Jones (21:13):
And so how is the best way for, especially in the world of B2B and I mean this can apply to both, but how do you as a designer or marketer remember that these are people? How do you design content that is going to engage a person versus just being like, “Look, you do this and it’s a 17.5% increase. Look at this case study.”
Wayne Mullins (21:42):
Yeah. The very first thing that I would say and most of your listeners when they hear me even say this phrase, they’re going to be like, “Oh yeah, yeah, we get this, we understand it.” But creating and crafting that customer avatar, right. Building out what your ideal customer looks like. What scares them? What are their desires? What are their fears? Where do they shop? What kind of car do they drive? Kids, no kids. Al of those things that we intuitively know, like we know we should have a customer avatar.
We also believe often that, yeah, I know my customers, I understand. But until we actually take the time to actually put that down in writing or put it on the computer screen, it forces our brain to interact with that information differently. And so I would challenge anyone listening to begin with that. Don’t just say, “Yeah, like I understand my audience. I know my audience.” But literally sit down and go through, I’m sure if you Google search, there’s a lot of custom avatar sheets or exercises you could go through, but really dive into who they are.
And what I would say is this, that when you truly know your customer avatar, you will be able to write a page from their own personal journal. So what I mean by that is this. Your customer gets up in the morning. They stumbled over to their desk. They’re wiping the sleep from their eyes. They sit down to jot in their journal. They open up the page and the page is already filled out, and they’re half asleep so they’re like, “What’s going on here? I don’t understand.” And so they start reading this and it’s what you’ve written from their perspective because you know them so well. That is what’s there.
That is how well we should know our customers. That is how well we should know the people that we’re going after in our marketing campaigns. We should know the things that keep them up at night. We should know their fears, their desires, all of those things. So one of the exercises that we love to do, like the B part to filling out, creating an avatar sheet is to write a page from their journal. Write a page from their journal so that you get into that mindset.
If you do that exercise, so if you sit down and just say, “Okay, I’m going to focus on this client over here today. I’m going to write a page from their journal today.” Write a half page. Spend 15 minutes writing that, and then go write your ad, go write your copy, work on your creative. It’s phenomenally different than what you would have done otherwise.
Stacy Jones (24:16):
It’s a really interesting approach to that.
Wayne Mullins (24:20):
It’s something that, again, because when I say create the customer avatar, everyone in the marketing world, they’re like, “Yeah, yeah, we get that. We do that. We understand our audience.” But when you actually put pen to paper or fingers to the keyboard and you write that page from the journal, you are no longer writing from your side. You’re no longer writing from the product side, the service side, from the features, the benefits, none of those things. You then write your ads from their perspective, their needs, their feelings, their desire. It’s phenomenal the way it shifts your ability to do creative after going through that exercise.
Stacy Jones (24:57):
And really what you’re talking about is you’re identifying on a relatable level, the pain points that this individual has. And if you’re able to identify the pain points, you’re able to actually directly speak to them as to how your product is now a solution for them. Instead of just putting together a lot of innuendos potentially, this is it. And you can really drill down very quickly if you have built out the right persona and avatar and all those fun things that we’re supposed to be doing.
Wayne Mullins (25:30):
Stacy Jones (25:32):
And then do you do market research as part of this? Is that part of it reaching out to your customers so that you can try to better understand those pain points?
Wayne Mullins (25:41):
Yeah, absolutely. I think it’s required in today’s world before you launch any type of campaign to really understand, talk to them. I’ll give you an example just to drive this point home maybe a little bit. A few years back we were working with a gentleman who owned several companies and one of his companies was a cattle company. And so he was very business oriented, very suit, jacket, tie, very corporate guy but he owned this cattle ranch. And so we’re going through the design phase of his website and he kept really pushing for more corporate look and feel. And no matter how much we would try to convince him and try to argue the other case like, “No, it needs to be more western, more-”
Stacy Jones (26:29):
People want Yellowstone. Come on man, Yellowstone.
Wayne Mullins (26:33):
Yeah. So he just wouldn’t go for it. So what we said, we said, “Okay look, we understand that you want this direction, we want this other direction. How about we do this? We’re going to actually go to your cattle sale that’s coming up and we will bring some homepage mocks, print it out and we will go around and survey people and we will ask, “Which do you like more A, B or C?
And so we went out to a cattle auction, we went around for a half a day and we surveyed people and sure enough it came back, it was a much more westerny feel. And at that point, the decision wasn’t do you listen to the marketing agency or do you go with your gut? The question was, do you go with what your actual audience, your actual customers want or do you go with what your gut says? And so it completely changed his approach to the website and the look and feel.
Stacy Jones (27:29):
Yeah. I think a lot of people when they’re talking to marketing agencies like ours, they think that it’s magic hocus-pocus that’s going on and it’s a lot of talk. It’s a lot of BS. It’s all the same, what the hell. But when it actually comes down to seeing dollars being driven, where you actually see that what you’re doing is getting a direct impact by someone who’s giving you feedback like what you all did at that Capitol show, it’s a lot more of a stronger proposition to be able to take a risk. It actually alleviates the risk entirely.
Wayne Mullins (28:10):
Yeah, absolutely because when you go straight to the source, they’re telling you what they want. And we live in a world now through social media, through the Internet, through all these things that it’s never been easier to actually find out what people want, to find out what they need, to find out their desires, their fears, all these things it’s so easy to do.
But yet I think we’re so distracted often because there’s a million different things going on. I don’t know what the right word would be but we get blinded or glossy eyed, and we’re looking at the platforms as if they’re the thing that are going to be our salvation. When in reality, it’s the person like you just said, on the other end that can validate or invalidate the messaging they’re right there, it’s just a matter of us doing the work necessary to find out what they want.
Stacy Jones (29:06):
I think all of that is so spot on but, Wayne, how can our listeners who also think it’s spot on and they’re like, “Huh, this is intriguing.” How can they reach out to you? How can they contact you? Obviously, all your information is going to be in our show notes, but someone’s like, “I’m ready to contact him now.” How can we do that?
Wayne Mullins (29:26):
The simplest place, Stacy, is just on our website, that’s just UglyMugMarketing.com. Email addresses are there, phone numbers are there, all our social channels are all linked there so that’s probably the simplest.
Stacy Jones (29:38):
Perfect, that makes it easy. And then what are parting words of advice to our listeners out there who are still trying to figure out how much this matters, how it doesn’t matter? What would you say?
Wayne Mullins (29:54):
Yeah, what I would say is this. When it comes to any form of marketing and really this can be life advice as well, consistency creates miracles. Consistency creates miracles. And when we are consistent in our actions, when we are consistent in the efforts that we put in towards our campaigns, eventually miracles will come but like we talked about earlier, you have to be focused on the right things. You can’t be focused on the vanity metrics. You can’t be focused on just taking certain actions. You have to be building those assets out. You have to be focused on being strategic, not just throwing a bunch of stuff at the wall and hoping something sticks.
Stacy Jones (30:39):
I wholeheartedly agree. Well, Wayne, thank you so much for joining us today. Greatly enjoyed having you on. And I know this is definitely one of those episodes I’m going to have our team tune into as well. To make sure that they can take a fresh look at our website and our social and see where we might not be as authentically engaging with the real person versus the corporate suit out there.
Wayne Mullins (31:05):
Yeah, it sounds great, Stacy. Thanks again for the opportunity. I’ve enjoyed our conversation as well.
Stacy Jones (31:10):
Awesome. Well, for all of you listening, thank you again for tuning into Marketing Mistakes and How To Avoid Them. I look forward to chatting with you this next week. And as always, here at Hollywood Branded we are so passionate about all things branded content, which does include your website and social and all those good things that is your content.
But we also believe that third-party content influencers, celebrities, TV, film, and music can give your brand massive power and sales by amplifying other people’s platforms. And if you want to partner with me and my team, email us, give us a shout, we’ll set up a call, chat through it. And until next week, have a great one, looking forward to chatting with you more.
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