EP 153: Detect And Combat Influencer Fraud With Yaro Pat | HypeAuditor

In this episode, Stacy sits down with the product manager at HypeAuditor, the seasoned Yaro Pat. The two discuss how to find the most efficient and authentic influencers for your marketing campaign, and they dive into methods on how you can detect and combat influencer fraud on Instagram.

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Stacy Jones: 00:00
Welcome to Marketing Mistakes (And How To Avoid Them), I’m Stacy Jones the founder of influencer marketing and branded content agency, Hollywood Branded. This podcast provides brand marketers a learning platform for topics for us to share our insights knowledge, on topics which make a direct impact on your business today. While it is impossible to be well versed on every topic and strategy that can improve bottom line results, my goal is to help you avoid making costly mistakes of time, energy or money, whether you are doing a DIY approach or hiring an expert to help.Stacy Jones: 00:29
Let’s begin today’s discussion.Speaker 2: 00:30
Welcome to Marketing Mistakes (And How To Avoid Them), here’s you host Stacy Jones.Stacy Jones: 00:36
Welcome to Marketing Mistakes (And How To Avoid Them), I’m Stacy Jones. I’m so happy to be here with you all today. I want to give a very warm welcome to Yaro Pack. Yaro is the project manager at Hype Auditor, a third party analytic source for Instagram, that was developed to help marketers find a more efficient way to source authentic influencers for their marketing campaigns.

Stacy Jones: 00:54
Yaro is a jack of all trades in design, development, analytics and marketing, and has spent the last two years concentrating on the influencer marketing industry and social media analytics, with his goal to help make the whole industry of influencer marketing more transparent and effective.

Stacy Jones: 01:08
Today we’re going to talk about influencer fraud on Instagram and how to detect and combat it. We’ll learn what has worked from Yaro’s experience, what maybe could be avoided and where people are missing the mark. Yaro, welcome!

Yaro Pack: 01:19
Thank you.

Stacy Jones: 01:19
I was super happy to have you here today, because I love talking about influencer marketing.

Yaro Pack: 01:24
So do I.

Stacy Jones: 01:28
Good. So to start us off can you give all of our listens a little bit of a background on who you are and what got you into doing social influencer marketing software?

Yaro Pack: 01:40
Yeah, so, I started a web designer, long time ago, and then I switched to a user experience designer role in a huge development company. Then I moved to a different city and I joined a great team of designers to be a project manager and then I understood that, actually I don’t like to be a project manager and to manager tasks that come from different people, or come from clients, because sometimes I think I know a little bit better what to do and I have more empathy for users.

Yaro Pack: 02:12
So I always wanted to my own product, my very own product where I am responsible for everything and where I use numbers to grow and understand what to do next, rather than doing it by guess.

Yaro Pack: 02:29
And by the way, that’s actually exactly what happened with influencer marketing right now, so people switch from growing my guess to growing by numbers, so and that’s a great thing. So that’s exactly what I did, so I join the company that I work for right now and I joined as a product manager, rather than to be in the project manager. What means, that I am responsible for first of all understanding the customer needs, so I talk to customers a lot, and if you have ever used our product you might have already have a chat with me, via email or in intercom, or maybe I was guiding our support engineers to solve your problems.

Yaro Pack: 03:16
So most of my work is working with people, more working with customers, who are mostly brands, who use Instagram influencer marketing, and also platforms and agencies, so these are my people, these are people who I help a lot, and the product that we do is only the tip of the iceberg, and we also do a lot of work to make the whole industry of influencer marketing transparent, fair and effective. So that’s our main goal at the moment.

Stacy Jones: 03:49
Okay, so to start off, so I know … and you’re going to share more details during our chat about this, because y’all have created this fantastic influencer report that everyone’s going to be able to download. But can you explain, just to our listeners, how you define … we’ll go into our conversation, the levels of influencers? We have the nano, we have the micro, we have the macro, we have a celebrity, can you put some numbers behind that? Of how y’all evaluate that?

Yaro Pack: 04:18
Yeah, so, the main thing here is that, not only the exact numbers that we choose to divide in terms of simple segments, because you may actually choose different numbers and if you go for a different articles on influencer marketing, you are right sometimes they say about nano influencers, sometimes they say about micro influencers. But the whole is that different influencers behave in a different way, and different products should be advertised with influencers of different size, and also the way you work with influencers of different size, is also different. For example when you work with a nano or micro influencers, sometimes they’re so low you don’t have to pay them, sometimes you just give them the product and as a thank you, as they agree to, they do a promotion for you, first of all.

Yaro Pack: 05:13
Second thing is that when you are subscribed to a small influencer you always feel strongly connected to them, so it’s like your friend online, it’s not like a celebrity. When you follow David Beckham you don’t feel connected to him at all, right? He’s a great guy, he looks like God, right?

Stacy Jones: 05:33

Yaro Pack: 05:34
So you don’t understand his everyday problems, your problems are completely different. But you like him in general because he’s a great person, so the things he do for the society are just great, but you don’t have the same problems you don’t lead the same life.

Yaro Pack: 05:51
And with small influencers you are very strongly connected with them, and that’s how the whole influencer marketing magic happens, because you just feel the advertisement from them like a piece of advice from a friend, right? So that’s what special about small influencers. And medium size influencers are also great because they already have certain influence, on their own. I was trying to find a different word but I understand that I just used this word a lot, like influence, influence, and stuff like this. So they already have some influence from their audience, but at the same time they are still down to earth, they are not like celebrities-

Stacy Jones: 06:40
They pretty much know what to do better, potentially than you nano influencers and your small micro influencers, they’ve honed their skill, their content might be a little bit more refined, they might understand how to grow their audience a little bit more. And they’re relatable to the follower, but not necessarily as relatable as your smaller influencers.

Yaro Pack: 07:02
Exactly, yeah. 100 percent. So their content is still authentic but it’s very high quality, so they used different special studio, special way of shooting, they know how to build to description on their every post. So they will never miss the opportunity to activate the audience using the certain words, certain CTA, certain tricks with Instagram stories. When for example they will build up some kind of suspense using stories, so they say like today I’m going to do something very special and then they ask you to vote for something, so yeah.

Yaro Pack: 07:45
Bigger influencers know how to do it the proper way, but they are not that … small influencers are just nice right? They are so relatable so that’s the key difference. And so what we did is that, we also know those influencers use Instagram differently, and they grow differently. So that’s why we decided to separate all the statistics we pulled by the size of influencers. And that’s also what we do in our reports, we never compare small bloggers to celebrities. We know that the market just doesn’t work that way, so we compare bloggers of similar sizes and we never set any gold standard, so we never say that engagement rates should be 7%. So we always compare bloggers of the same size, and when we give any marks, so when we say like this is average or this is great, so we always say that is great compared to the market situation in general, not to how we think it should be, must be.

Stacy Jones: 09:01
So you mention engagement rates and that you can’t say apples to apples your micro influencer can’t be compared the same way, but what kind of engagement rates should people be looking for? Because when influencer marketing first started everyone was just looking at the overall follower count and they were judging whether that influencer would be good or not based on that count, and this gets into why your software is a solution provider, because you’re digging in a little bit deeper, versus just saying okay influencer A has 7500 followers, influencer B has 57000, influencer C has 437000, you’re drilling down a little bit more into that.

Yaro Pack: 09:47
Yeah exactly, so this is how the whole market was developing. So for a long, long time ago, you were absolutely right, all brands were looking only at the number of followers and by that moment it was actually a great way to measure influencers, because all followers were 100% authentic and bold, engaged, everyone was checking every post. So it was great by that moment, but that’s long, long time ago.

Yaro Pack: 10:15
And then influencers understood when all brands look only at this certain metric you can inflate it artificially, so they started purchasing bots, and when they purchased bots … so the outcome that they got was, so they have a lot of followers but very small number of likes and comments. So their engagement rate fell down and the brands started to check for engagement rate. So brands understood that if you have authentic followers you will have a lot of likes and comments, but what happened next? Bloggers started to inflate likes and comments.

Yaro Pack: 10:56
So what we do now is that we check the authenticity of both, followers, likes, and comments, like overall audience authenticity, to help brands to work and to choose only authentic influencers.

Yaro Pack: 11:15
So that’s what makes working with influencers using Hype Auditor very special, so. As far as I know not all brands and even not all agencies ask for Instagram insights or just any statistics, so by a different source to say that almost 15% of brands ask for bloggers to send their Instagram insights and that doesn’t sound like a approach that gives a huge return of investment, right?

Stacy Jones: 11:51

Yaro Pack: 11:52
So we think that when you choose bloggers you should always look for their demography, their age/gender, countries and cities where their audience is based, and also check for authenticity. So that’s what we think is like major things you should check.

Stacy Jones: 12:13
And just for our listeners every time he’s saying bloggers, he’s meaning influencers, and it’s just a little bit interchangeable because bloggers do use Instagram and Facebook, and Twitter and so forth, but we’re considering bloggers someone whose writing articles and embedding photos and it’s more on a stand alone website, when we say bloggers usually versus Instagrammer’s who are posting, who are influencers.

Yaro Pack: 12:39
Yeah, I’m talking about Instagram influencers here, I think that’s a cultural thing there, so.

Stacy Jones: 12:45
Yeah it is. Just to clear it up because I can hear people right now thinking as they’re listening, bloggers, wait, this is different? So just to clear that up.

Stacy Jones: 12:57
We get this a lot when we’re talking with brands and individuals just in general, how to robots work? Do you know? Do you have any insight? Like how do these things actually exist.

Yaro Pack: 13:10
Well, there are different kinds, there are different ways to inflate your numbers on Instagram. And by the way I spread some numbers for you, so up to 60% of U.S. bloggers inflate followers number or engagement.

Stacy Jones: 13:26
And they’re going online to a site and you literally can purchase followers.

Yaro Pack: 13:30
Yeah, exactly.

Stacy Jones: 13:31
And you can decide if you’re just purchasing followers or if you’re purchasing followers who are going to comment on your post which is usually gobbledygook.

Yaro Pack: 13:40
Yeah, so exactly. So, and the price is strikingly low, so it’s like $10 for thousand of followers. Can you imagine?

Stacy Jones: 13:51
Yeah, yeah.

Yaro Pack: 13:51
So for sure if you want to trick your advertisers you are going to followers that will stay with you for like one month or so, and during that period in time you will be able to trick your advertisers.

Yaro Pack: 14:07
But also a lot of interesting things start to happen, first of all, since your purchased followers are absolutely massive, they drop your engagement rate, and Instagram algorithm see that your audience doesn’t react to your content and starts to show your content less, so now you have to purchase also likes and comments, and you’re so hooked.

Yaro Pack: 14:33
And the thing is that bloggers sometimes even don’t do this because they are bad guys. So I always avoid saying that it’s users are behaving in a wrong way, there’s no wrong or right way, right? But sometimes influencers just don’t understand what actually happens and what is the outcome of hiring Instagram growth managers, that’s an actual profession, right? So people pay Instagram growth managers and those guys start to just, purchasing followers, purchasing likes, and after their work your Instagram account might actually get very inauthentic, very dormant audience, and the whole impact will be negative.

Yaro Pack: 15:26
So that’s why we always stand for staying real and go in authentically using, posting interesting content that’s based in different offline events, and stuff like this to get authentic and engaged audience.

Stacy Jones: 15:47
And just so all of our listeners know, it’s not just influencers who purchase fake followers and engagement, it’s brand also. A lot of companies will do it and we talk to them all the time and they’re like oh well I just want to look like we have a bigger following base. And because there’s a perception that if you have a bigger following base more people will see that, oh you’re popular you must have cool stuff, and they’ll follow you too.

Stacy Jones: 16:09
But it all really comes down to the content, because if your content sucks and it’s not very good, people are going to clue in really quickly and even if they start to follow you, they’re going stop following very swiftly as well.

Yaro Pack: 16:22
Exactly. And they’re also different ways of inflating followers. So, a long time ago you can only purchase followers and that’s it. And now the techniques grow more sophisticated, so one of the most popular methods worldwide is buying followers, and up to 22% of United States Instagram influencers bought followers at least once. 14% used follow/unfollow, when you follow a lot of a accounts to attract a lot of a attention and then you unfollow them back because you’re not interested for real. But they have already seen your activity, in their activity tab. Also 38% of users inflate comments and likes in the United States and worldwide up to 30% people do that.

Yaro Pack: 17:23
And 11% and that’s a very low number, participate in engagement pods, it’s a special way of inflating comments, that is very hard to spot, it’s a way for influencers together in small groups using Instagram direct messages, or Telegram, or Facebook or WhatsApp, stuff like this. And every time someone makes a post they just send a link to the post to that group asking people to post at least four words in their comments to ask about a specific thing, to praise it, stuff like this.

Stacy Jones: 18:04
Yep, so there’s a little scratching of someones back in order to help everyone out with this, in order to help.

Stacy Jones: 18:10
Okay, well all this is negative for brands because you’re ultimately often paying based on a CPM model where it’s cost per thousand, so you’re looking very much so … and there’s not science to this, there’s no exact this is how much everything costs, but everything’s based on how many followers someone has and then also what type of content they’re creating, is it photos, is it videos, is it multiple posts, are they attending an event, you know, what is it that’s being asked of them? And then as well as just how much engagement they have, and that should be factoring in, because if you’re working with an influencer who has super low engagement and high numbers, that’s not as valuable as someone who has good, low numbers and high engagement.

Yaro Pack: 18:58
Yeah, and also for sure the engagement rate is different for influencers of different sizes, so micro influencers have significant higher engagement rate-

Stacy Jones: 19:12
Is there an average there usually, that you’re looking for?

Yaro Pack: 19:17
You can check it in Hype report for an influencer, but generally celebrities have way lower engagement rate, because people don’t seem to want to comment celebrities post, because they know that a celebrity will never answer them, so there’s no reason to do that.

Yaro Pack: 19:42
That’s why micro influencers have great engagement rate. And also some of the huge influencers used to use growth services without any control when everything was, how my boss says when everything was Wild West.

Stacy Jones: 20:06
It’s not still Wild West? I think it’s still Wild West! It was just more wild west back then.

Yaro Pack: 20:11
Well we fight the Wild West invasion in the market right now, so I hope that it will come to an end.

Yaro Pack: 20:19
So when everything was Wild West people used to use those growth services, and they received a lot of inactive followers, and they see the result now, after years they still have the lower engagement rate because of that dormant followers, so that’s the problem.

Stacy Jones: 20:42
Well, until something like Twitter happens again and Facebook or Instagram decide to take one as an example, because twitter went through and they removed all the fake followers that people had, or at least a large chunk of fake followers that people had. Instagram hasn’t ever done this yet.

Yaro Pack: 21:02
As so as far as we know, first of all talk about Twitter cleaning the bots, I’m not sure about how effective that was. So, since I’m using twitter for like 11 years, I saw very contraversary reaction on twitter, when this happened. Some people said not only bots were removed but also [crosstalk 00:21:30].

Stacy Jones: 21:29
Real followers.

Yaro Pack: 21:30
Yeah, real followers were removed. And second of all Instagram as far as we know, Instagram cleans bots sometimes, so we do this on a regular basis, but the problem is that bots become more sophisticated over time, and so what we do is … so I’m not sure how Instagram detects bots, and how they spot and what they define as a bot. But what we do is we use machine learning that was built in house, so we built a machine learning algorithm, and it looks on the numbers of different Instagram accounts and it was trained on thousands of accounts of real people and bots and now it’s able to spot a real person from bot.

Yaro Pack: 22:26
And actually anyone can spot a bot on Instagram right? So when you see certain profile you can understand that’s a bot, right? So when it doesn’t have any data’s of a real person and it doesn’t have a avatar, when the username is weird and contains random numbers and the full name doesn’t seem like a real person name, and then no posts a lot of followings, very small number of followers, so all these things are easy to spot by a person. But the thing is that machines do it fast, machines do it great. And everything what we do with our can be done by a person and it will take like a month to analyze 10000 followers, and for us we built a record in less than two minutes, so I think that’s a little bit faster than doing things-

Stacy Jones: 23:24
Just a little faster, yes.

Yaro Pack: 23:26
Just a little faster. So that’s thing, and also we can do it in parallel, so that’s the greatest thing. Well for example when you prepared to do an advertising campaign and you want to check the influencers that you really like you just specify their user names one by one and we can rate all of them in parallel and in minutes, less than an hour you will see complete reports of every influencer you want to work with.

Stacy Jones: 23:52
And that way you can see what their following count is, as well as their engagement, how many likes, how many comments.

Yaro Pack: 24:01
Yeah, so we have all the basic measures that you mention, so for sure we have followers, following, post number, engagement rate, average likes, average comments, but we also have all the fancy stuff, stuff that is not that easy to spot. So first of all we have audience types, so for every influencer we specify the number of real people and the number influencers, the number of mass followers, so the accounts that follow more than 1500 other accounts, so they don’t see the influencer content, and the number of suspicious accounts, so we never say bot because our algorithm can be wrong.

Yaro Pack: 24:43
So for sure in less than 2% cases we will see that the real person behaves like bot, and that happened for example with a friend of mine who decided to archive all his photos, remove all his information, and then our algorithm said, most likely this is not real human behavior, and really that’s not how people use Instagram right? We at least have a profile photo because Instagram forces us to do that. We at least have one or two posts, or we post like once a month at least, right?

Stacy Jones: 25:23

Yaro Pack: 25:23
So for sure our techniques may give some mistakes, you always have mistakes when you deal with statistics, but in 98% of cases we’ll be right. And I think that’s a great rate for a machine learning technique.

Stacy Jones: 25:46
Yeah and there’s also, just so the listeners understand, you know there’s fake robots, but there’s also something called dead accounts. And dead accounts happen when people are just no longer active, they’re just not using it anymore. Maybe someone set up a number of different Instagram handles and now they’re concentrating on something else, and now they’re not active so they’re kind of pulling down any of those accounts they’re following too and that adds up. And you especially see this with celebrities. Like your Kim Kardashians out there, where they potentially have hundreds of thousands of dead accounts because that’s just what happens when you have that big of a follower base.

Yaro Pack: 26:25
Exactly, yeah. And they also have all the interesting stuff, so normally to know your influencers audience demography, so where they live, how old they are, you have to ask them, and sometimes they won’t respond to you, or they might basically Photoshop their insights and show you the wrong number.

Stacy Jones: 26:55
Yeah, fake insights!

Yaro Pack: 26:56
Yeah, fake insights. So what we do is that we also use a different, very advance techniques like computer vision, initial language procession and so stuff like this to define countries of the audience, cities of the audience, languages the audience speaks, so age and gender splayed, ethnicity and all the interesting stuff like this, so that if you’re a brand you will be able to peek the influencers that have most of your target audience. Because you, as a brand you always know what is your audience age and gender, where do they live, what are they interested in, and we also show these by the way, we show the interests of the audience based on what else they are engaged with.

Stacy Jones: 27:48
And this is super important if you’re going to do a brand integration deal and you’re actually going to apy an influencer to talk about your product. I can’t tell you how many times we’ll be talking with a brand whose hiring us to do influencer marketing for them and who they think someone would be perfect is not it at all, they were like oh she’s beautiful, she’s lovely, she’s gorgeous, you know she’s swim suits, whatever it might be and we have to say yes how her followers are basically in Europe and Asia and they’re all men, and you’re trying to sell a product that is in the United States to Millennials.

Yaro Pack: 28:25
Yeah, absolutely.

Stacy Jones: 28:25
So, that’s important.

Yaro Pack: 28:29
Yeah. So also, now speaking about the interests of the audience, sometimes for example when you see a sports’ person you think that probably people who write to a famous soccer player are interested in soccer but they will be interested in beauty and fashion.

Stacy Jones: 28:47

Yaro Pack: 28:48
So that’s what happens in the market. So that’s actually interesting thing, so what we will deal with is a real market [inaudible 00:28:55], not what we supposed it to be, and this reveals a lot of interesting insights.

Stacy Jones: 29:00

Yaro Pack: 29:01
So, first of all engagement rates, and also more deep insides this thing with topics people are interested in.

Stacy Jones: 29:11
On the point [crosstalk 00:29:14] one thing that’s so funny that comes up, so we had done campaigns specifically for athletes right. And we’re like oh this would be perfect, spot on, and then, know the athletes typically date women who are supermodels, celebrity, all of those and so the next thing you find out is, this athlete who you think is like super big with the male followers, it’s all people who are following reality stars or Housewives of Beverly Hills, or whatever it might be, because they are the females interested in getting insights, because these athletes also post about their girlfriends, and these people following want to see those photos they’re posting about their girlfriends or their wives.

Yaro Pack: 29:56
Nice. Yeah so, different interesting insights open up when you deal with real data. So and that’s also available thing for brands. So you shouldn’t use your intuition, you should use numbers, and you should check the real statistics to measure the estimated impact. So, that’s the available thing for both brands and agencies and platforms. So, also speaking about the … so how to use … So you can always check your influencers for all these metrics.

Yaro Pack: 30:44
And also we have a one huge metric that combines the whole record in one number, we call it audience quality score, and it’s shown at the very top of every record. And it’s color coded. So it’s green for great audience quality, it’s yellow for average, and red if something seems not very authentic. So for sure it’s not for a rating of any kinds, so we do not give scores to real people. We do not deal with stuff like this, because this sounds very unacceptable, right? So that’s why we call this not the bloggers score, not influencers scores, we always call it audience quality score. So it deals with quality of Instagram accounts, who has subscribed to that influencer, and shows how authentic they are.

Yaro Pack: 31:44
And sometimes, even though that number tells a lot, but we always recommend to drill down and see the whole report, to see the audience type, to see engagement and how authentic it is, to see the rough analysis. So we also have nice analytics that analyzes the curve of followers number for any anomalies. So for example you might see sudden spikes that stand for burst followers, and we are able to determine between a sudden spike of burst followers and a spike of appearing on TV for example.

Stacy Jones: 32:32

Yaro Pack: 32:33
There are ways to organically have a [inaudible 00:32:36] growth on your followers number, and we are able to distinguish between bot followers and those organic ways. We also look at followings graph and when you see saw pattern there, this means follow/unfollow, and this also means that most followers will be inauthentic, they will be not interested in the influencers content, so we also think of that as not a natural way to grow your followers.

Stacy Jones: 33:09
Right, especially with sweep stakes or things that you could win just for the moment, you’ll see people who just dive in and do an entry and then jump out again.

Yaro Pack: 33:17
Yeah, exactly.

Stacy Jones: 33:18
Okay, and then, so all of our listeners also know, it used to be that if you’re doing a campaign and you’re spending enough money you actually could talk to the influencers agent and you could get the password to the influencers account so you could check … your eyes just got big, but you actually could do that. And that wasn’t unheard of, where you could actually dig in and see, you know your own ability.

Stacy Jones: 33:45
Or you wouldn’t even need to ask them for the password. You would have them sign up, and they would give you permission to have your analytics information, dive in and take a look at their password, or not their password but have access to it, to look into their follower, and their analytics and numbers.

Stacy Jones: 34:03
But what’s happened is, very recently people don’t want to do this at all any more, and they’re running scared. I’m mean obviously to give up a password scared, but even to use an analytics software where they’re having to sign in themselves is not something y’all have created a system to do, because peoples accounts are being stolen and taken over and held hostage.

Stacy Jones: 34:24
And people, once you go in if you can change the password on that account, you can literally run away with that account and use the follower … there’s accounts of people selling brand deals on fake accounts, that are real accounts and that the real person can no longer even get involved in, and you can tell when this happens because it looks like the account has just been spammed with a lot of content that happens very quickly, and it can be hundreds of thousands of dollars that are transferring. And there’s nothing that Instagram and Facebook can really do about it, because they can’t get ahead of it, because the passwords keep changing the usernames keep changing, and it’s very, very difficult to even find the account, because it will be a real authentic account with all these followers, and then they’ll change the name and so that’s this whole new world out there that causes it to be even hard for marketers to truly have insight sometimes, unless they are using tools like Hype Auditor.

Yaro Pack: 35:18
Yeah, exactly, and so what we do is 100% safe, so we don’t use any passwords, you don’t give nay private information, we care about privacy a lot because this is number one value in modern culture, right?

Yaro Pack: 35:34
So all information we use is 100% public. So we don’t use any gray techniques, we don’t [inaudible 00:35:41].

Stacy Jones: 35:41

Yaro Pack: 35:41
We don’t use any sensitive data, we don’t store anything in personalized form, so everything we store is 100% anonymized. To avoid any kind of personalization, and we do this from day zero, so this is our core value is privacy of our users, so we don’t use any sensitive data, we don’t use any private data. We never ask for Instagram access, we never ask for EPI access, stuff like this. We never ask for username or password for sure, because it’s so hazy. So everything we do is based on public information.

Yaro Pack: 36:23
And for all influencers, we give lifetime free access to their report to help them grow, again and use number because sometimes it’s just hard to do, it’s hard to track. So they try different techniques, they try different approaches, they try different content, and they don’t see any way to measure their impact. So, that’s why we created free weekly reports for all influencers, and they are 100% free. So an influencer can sign up with Hype Auditor, specify their username, and this subscribes to weekly reports and also we will recalculate the whole report twice a month for free. And twice a month is very frequent, very frequent. So, once a month is enough for almost any report, some reports do not change in three months, the mostly have the same audience, that’s true for huge accounts, because things don’t change a lot for huge accounts. Smaller accounts are reeducated every month and for influencers we exclusively recalculate the reports twice a month, so they see direction of every small change.

Yaro Pack: 37:41
It’s like when you’re riding a small plane … I know have you ever ride a small plane?

Stacy Jones: 37:46

Yaro Pack: 37:46
Well, when you ride a small plane, it’s just you, and you just a little bit and the whole plane goes-

Stacy Jones: 37:52

Yaro Pack: 37:52
and that’s exactly what happens with small Instagram accounts, when they care about growth they just start to use different photo techniques, they start to talk about slightly different topics, they start to behave a little bit different in stories, and then the whole thing changes, so that’s why we give reports every week and basic measures are recalculated daily.

Stacy Jones: 38:15

Yaro Pack: 38:16
So that’s what we do, and that’s what’s very special for influencers, and brands, and agencies, we have ability to check just Instagram accounts and to do that they just need to purchase, what we call credit, and one credit gives access to one Instagram report for one year, and that’s a lot. So the report will be recalculated and that’s handy when you want to build a company with this influencer. Have multiple touch point with your audience with one of the same influencer, multiple times in a year or more.

Yaro Pack: 38:54
So we can analyze any Instagram account that has more than 1000 followers, that’s the only real limitation. We also have ABI solutions for platforms. Since we care about making the impact on the whole market, we understand that we can give our data to different platforms, and they will use it to qualify influencers to enrich their internal reports, so we have ABI access for our reports so any platform can use that data. So and for agencies and brands they can just use a web version of our reports or download a PDF of any reports. That’s how we get the brands covered. We do this whole thing to make the market better, so that’s our core values.

Yaro Pack: 39:56
And every time we plan a new feature we never talk about making money, we always talk about changing the market.

Stacy Jones: 40:04

Yaro Pack: 40:04
So that’s what we borrowed from famous Steve Jobs phrase, that you don’t have to make a business that makes money, you have to make business that changes the world and money will come with it. So, that’s what we do, that’s our core principle.

Stacy Jones: 40:20
That’s fantastic. Well I mentioned at the very beginning of this podcast, that y’all have created a report that our listeners can download. Can you share some more information about that report and where people can find it.

Yaro Pack: 40:33
So State of Influencer Marketing Report contains the state of influencer marketing, right.

Stacy Jones: 40:43
That’s good, that’s a good starting point.

Yaro Pack: 40:47
So we broke it down by countries, we broke it down by influencer size, and we mainly focused on things that we do best, and that’s fraud analytics, so our report is about how different influencers of different size use Instagram, use techniques to inflate audience, how engagement rate is different, how comments and likes rate and way of inflating them is different by blogger size and by country. So that’s what our report is focused on and it also shows how our main metrics changed during the year, so how the engagement was … so engagement rate was going for some influencers and it went slightly lower for different influencers, so this should be a very interesting reading for everyone who works with Instagram for years and saw what happens in the industry.

Stacy Jones: 42:02
And I believe y’all analyzed over 4 million influencers on Instagram to create this report.

Yaro Pack: 42:08

Stacy Jones: 42:09
And for anyone who is interested in downloading it, y’all can go to, hype auditor dot com, back slash resources, backslash influencer marketing state 2019. And that’s so much information, so what we’re going to do is put that in our show notes, so that you can just go to the podcast page and click it and you will be able to immediately get access to this report.

Yaro Pack: 42:31
Yeah, and it’s certainly free. And it comes in the form of nicely designed PDF, you know?

Stacy Jones: 42:37
It is! It’s beautiful, it’s colorful it’s 56 pages, I’m looking at it right now on my computer screen. So it is definitely there’s some information, outside of what you typically see in a lot of influencer marketing reports that are out there. So there’s some great stats.

Yaro Pack: 42:55
We were trying to show as much information as we can, and at the same time make it comprehensive and easy to understand. So I will spend a lot of time with our designers, so there was whole a team of designers working on just presenting the information in a comprehensive way. So if you see the source, the raw material, it’s just a lot of first impression.-

Stacy Jones: 43:18
Data, numbers.

Yaro Pack: 43:19
Like thousands of number in figures and they are all so disconnected. So we were just, first of all we were gathering this whole information, so this report uses the same information we use in our tool, so it was a by product of our tool, but we just gathered the whole thing, we just created all this precious … and then we started to first of all spot interested things, because numbers are just not enough, you need to spot the maximums and minimums as least right, and then we grew representing information in the most easy to digest way, so that’s where my design background comes into place.

Stacy Jones: 43:56
Well I think y’all did a good job, and design wise the front end of this report is very nice. What I also like about it is you have the average engagement rate on Instagram and y’all show that for really tiny super nano, pretty much all of our listeners potentially following this even, you have about a 5.6% engagement rate, when you have 5000 to 20000 followers it drops down to 2.34%, 20000 to 100000 it drops down to 2.15%, 100000 to 1000000 around 2.05%, 1000000 up 1.97%.

Stacy Jones: 44:32
So you can see when you’re talking about doing nano influencer campaigns, which is like the new hot topic for marketers to do, the reason why it’s worthwhile to do is you get silly high engagement rates, but now you have to also understand that working with this many influencers can kind of be like herding cats, you have to send out product, you have to follow up. But it’s a really good way to do a content play, by working with super small influencers who get super high engagement rates, and you’re going to get some good content out of that as well.

Yaro Pack: 45:02
Yeah exactly, so micro influencers have their own good points and I understand why they’ve become hotter and hotter in the market.

Stacy Jones: 45:13
Yep, well, Yaro thank you so much for being on today, this was absolutely fantastic and before I say goodbye, are there any other things to know that you’d want to leave our listeners with, anything else that you think they should keep in mind when they’re branching out and digging into influencer marketing, and of course visiting Hype Auditor as well to take a look at your software.

Yaro Pack: 45:39
Yeah, so the main thing that I want to say is that every time I approach people with our tool, for example we recently … I share a very special secret with you and your listeners.

Stacy Jones: 45:55

Yaro Pack: 45:55
So we recently hired a great designer we were searching for him for a long time. And for some period in time we were outsourcing our design to our friends from a fellow company. And when we were hiring a new designer he’s absolutely the best, he so crazy cool. So you will see his new designs, and they are like that’s a new level, that’s fantastic.

Yaro Pack: 46:22
So when I was [inaudible 00:46:24] him and I was walking through our record that for me seem so easy to understand because I see it every day and I see hundreds of records every day so I know every trait of every record, I work with them a lot, when I was in [inaudible 00:46:41] I was talking to him about the year report, I understood that it might not be that easy to understand from the first place. So when you go to Hype Auditor at the moment you see an exampled reports of celebrities that we show for free on our index page. Or if you try your first record which we also give for free, that’s okay if some of that key insights seem not that easy to understand for you.

Yaro Pack: 47:10
Please just don’t hesitate to contact us, so me and my team will help you to understand every metric of every record for both bloggers and brands. We will be more than happy to help you use Hype Auditor to maximize your outcome and to be aware of what you do in influencer marketing.

Stacy Jones: 47:34
Well that is a very nice offer, so thank you!

Yaro Pack: 47:37
Thank you!

Stacy Jones: 47:38
Well Yaro, again, thank you so much for your time, really appreciate it I know our listeners did as well. And then to our listeners, thank you so much for tuning in to Marketing Mistakes (And How To Avoid Them), and I will chat with you on our next podcast.

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Marketing Mistakes and How To Avoid Them Reviews 

Must-Listen For Every Brand Marketer (And Owner)

This should be required listening for everyone who owns a business, works in marketing, or is interested in the business of entertainment. Great stuff!

The Best Marketing Podcast Ever!

Stacy is a brilliant branding strategist and she really knows how to bring out the best in her guests! This show is fun AND educational! If you’re looking to understand the world of marketing, branding, digital marketing, influencer marketing and more, look no further. This show has awesome insight into some of the greatest marketing minds out there today, and they provide practical advice you can use in your business today. #FanForLife

Awesome podcast for all marketers!

Keep them coming

Practical and pointed advice.

Stacy does a really great job making this a highly actionable podcast for business owners. With a focus on marketing, she covers a wide range of related topics as well and is always very specific with her questions so that the listener gets pointed advice instead of vague concepts to take away. It’s also really helpful to the hear the why behind any marketing tactic so that we can decide if something sounds like a good fit for where we are at in this moment.

Love this marketing podcast!

Lori has a way of finding new insights to share every week. I loved being a guest, but I enjoy hearing her many fascinating conversations with other marketers even more. Great show!

I love Stacey Jones!

I absolutely loved being on this podcast! Stacey is amazing – real, down to earth, and genuinely curious and interested in learning – this makes for a very engaging conversation and valuable podcast!

Thank you for your podcast! I LOVE IT

I just listened to the episode named Insights To Product Placement Brand Marketers Need To Know, and I really enjoyed every minute of it! There are so many ways to approach product placement in a manner that provides wins for many – and it is not always driven by money. I am looking forward to listening to more!

Stuff we need to know!!

Anyone who is in business should be listening to this podcast! Incredible insights and advice.

Such a wealth of knowledge! 🧠

This is one of the most insightful podcasts that I have ever come across! Stacy does such a great job of sharing her wisdom and I love how she leads meaningful conversations with guests who bring so much experience to the table. Highly recommend checking this show out – you won’t be disappointed!

Awesome Podcast!!!

Stacy, host of the Marketing Mistakes (And How To Avoid Them) Podcast, highlights all marketing and more in this can’t miss podcast! The host and expert guests offer insightful advice and information that is helpful to anyone that listens!
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