EP342: Turn Customer Data Into Digital Experience Gold With Shamir Duverseau | Smart Panda Labs

Stacy Jones:
Welcome to marketing mistakes and how to avoid them. I’m, Stacey Jones and I’m: so happy to be here with you all today. I want to give a very warm welcome to Shamir Duverseau. Shamir is the managing director, chief strategist and co-founder of smart Panda labs a digital experience agency that helps B to see enterprise, marketers plan, build and improve consumer digital experiences from customer acquisition to retention. Over the past years Shamir has held leadership, roles overseeing everything from product management to digital strategy, including user and experience, design, web, development, testing and web analytics.He’s worked across a number of industries, spanning from travel to entertainment and technology, working with brands like Southwest airlines. The Walt Disney Company, Nbc. Universal and Maria.

Today Shamir and I are going to be chatting about how to use customer data to enhance digital experiences. We’ll learn what works from his perspective, but should be avoided, and how some companies and individuals just miss the mark. Sh me your welcome so happy to have you here today. Thank you so much, Stacy. I’m happy to be here. Well, what i’d love to do is start off chatting about how you got here. I mean, you have worked at tremendous companies over the year lifetime in your career, and what has led you to here today doing this? I think it’s really the time that I worked with those companies. it was really a time when the Internet was really starting to take off and and really become just not just kind of a side component, but a critical component of what you need to do to to be in business today, and that was an enjoyable time. It was an exciting time, but it was also a very frustrating time because departments had to work together in new ways and in ways they weren’t accustomed to departments that didn’t speak to the same language, and particularly marketing and and operations, and it really had to kind of blend together to be able to accomplish what you want to do in terms of delivering an experience online.

Well, seeing the bureaucracy, seeing the frustration, seeing these huge gaps and knowledge and expertise and resources. really begin to feel like you know this. This is something that a lot of companies have, and are going to have for for a long period of time trying to identify and fill those gaps.

So After working through that in my own corporate life, I said, Well, maybe I can help others begin to work through that so kind of gather together some key people i’d work with over the years, and we started smart Panda labs.

And when you’re first working with someone, what is it that you do? Is it a deep dive into their website, and trying to understand how it flows? Or are you looking more so at the overall business, and then connecting the dots. You know it can be a little of both.

Some clients come to us, and they already kind of know what they what they feel like they’re looking for, but it’s on a high level. Others come to us a little bit more as you kind of mentioned. Maybe more kind of open and are looking for things. But definitely it’s a process of really kind of saying, what is it that you’re trying to accomplish overall in the business. Even the above and beyond what you’re doing digitally

Shamir Duverseau: just has a business, has an organization. What are you trying to accomplish? What your big term goals, and then we begin to look at those marketing tactics. What are you doing today? How do those tactics tied back to those goals? And then what needs to be enhanced, and what’s keeping you from enhancing it to be able to reach that?because consumers today they have an expectation of what a digital experience really is. and then expectation. Is it colored by the fact that maybe you’re in an industry that’s a little bit further behind, and others are. It’s it’s colored by the the Amazons of the world, and the kind of experience you have there, and they expect that whether I go to an Amazon or another retailer. Whether I go to a hospital website, whether I go to a travel website, I expect that same standard of experience. so really helping people say what is preventing you from getting to that standard? And how do we build the right foundation and framework to to help you to to achieve that and get there.

Stacy Jones:
Yeah. And you’re really helping. Make sure that people don’t bounce  s after they’ve actually landed on your page.

That’s a general idea for sure, and that they can dial in and find the information that they’re wanting, because, as Google is advancing so much and we’re so used to using long tail keywords and dialing up the information we want. It is so frustrating getting onto our website and not finding that nuggets that you need, and it’s buried somewhere that only the web designer might maybe have an idea of like years ago. Exactly. And that’s that’s a big part of what we identify, too, is we spend so much time as marketers in terms of what happens before the click right? We spend so much time on perhaps SEO and trying to get the right rking on the page. A lot of time, a lot of money on advertising, trying to get ads out there and trying to get someone to click.

Shamir Duverseau:
People only spend a few seconds on a search engine results page only a few seconds interacting with an AD. The majority of their time happens post-click. but that’s not where we spend our time and energy and resources as marketers. We spend all that time in the advertising. We spend a lot of time trying to get ranked.

So we really try to help people kind of change that mentality of it and say, hey, let’s spend our money and energy and resources where people are spending their time on that user experience. So that exactly to your point, people can find what they’re looking for the information they need to convince them to say Yes, I want to move forward. I want to become a lead. I want to make this purchase, or whatever that call to action happens to be.

Stacy Jones: Then you spend so much time and money paying you to get someone top of funnel to your web page. That is kind of

Stacy Jones: heartbreaking if you’re having them bounce off of it when it’s just beginning. The sale has just begun Once they’ve landed

Shamir Duverseau: Exactly. That’s exactly the case. and you know there’s so much opportunity right to to really make that experience better, because if if I made the choice to make that click to come to your site.

Shamir Duverseau: A piece of me wants to at least explore this. You know. Worst case scenario at best scenario. I I want to be persuaded that I want to be convinced to make that purchase. So really it’s great brands can be very quick to kind of get in the way of people doing what they on some level already want to do.

Shamir Duverseau: But again, if we don’t spend the right time there, really understanding what the data is telling us people are trying to accomplish. Then using that data to to iterate and make changes that people can do that more easily. We’re really kind of hurting ourselves.

Stacy Jones: you know, and I know a lot of the websites that you work for, and the business enterprises like, especially when it comes to a hospital. I mean there’s so much more that comes into that, and laws that have to be there, and protections and the like. But

Stacy Jones: on the day to day and most websites. What are the traditional issues that you come across over and over again that you see that you’re just like. Come on, people fix

I think a lot of it has to do with not take into account the the architecture of the page. Right? So maybe leading too much with design, and making this look pretty, maybe leaving too much with having a lot of content that perhaps that we feel like is very on brand, but not really thinking about. Well, let’s think about the person, this thing about what they’re looking for, and what they’re trying to accomplish on this page. How do we best organize that content? And the way that people tend to organize and digest information?

And then how do we surface the information that someone really needs in order to make an informed decision. again, it’s marketers. We tend to be great creative, which is great. we tend to think about big ideas. We tend to think about things like wow, factors and things like that, and that’s all well and good.

But at its core ultimately what we’re trying to do is we’re trying to tell a particular story that’s going to resonate with that person, so that that person can say, Yes, this is what i’m looking for. This fulfill my need. You know this. This. This hits me on an emotional level. I’m ready to make a decision. I’m ready to move forward. and a website can be a tremendous tool at doing that. But we find a lot of websites. Don’t have that issue because they haven’t kind of thought through. How do we structure this page in the organization by extension? How do we structure the website overall so that people can very easily kind of discern what’s happening.

I can digest this. I understand how things are organized. Okay, I I know where to go to get what I need.

Stacy Jones: How often should people be diving in businesses, be diving in and looking at, refreshing their website.

Shamir Duverseau: you know, if you if you really do it right, it it should almost never be an issue of saying, hey! It’s it’s time for a complete redesign. It should really be a consistent iterative process. So if you’re doing it right. You’re constantly looking at the data on a regular basis. You’re discerning insights from that data. You’re analyzing it. And you’re saying, oh, okay, here here Here’s a paypoint, right? Here’s people where people are exiting the website. Here’s a page with a a high bounce rate. Here’s a page where people aren’t scrolling down as low as we’d like them to to to get some key critical information.

Shamir Duverseau: And then you’re testing You’re experimenting and saying, Well, how do we fix that problem. So you’re You’re changing the layout of the page, or maybe you’re changing the the navigation of the website. You make a change. You test it not that? Does it work? Well, let’s try something else. You test, and that does work. Okay, Where? Where’s another pain point? Let’s test that if you’re constantly doing that by its very nature the website is going to change over time. And eventually, you know, after a couple of years the website’s gonna begin to look differently. So, in a sense, in essence, your your customers are redesigning your website right? Because you’re you’re giving these experiments. You’re you’re giving them these personalized. Experiences. You’re using that to make decisions. And then by its nature the website is is changing, and it’s evolving over time. It’s kind of resigning itself.

Stacy Jones: And what I love is that you use word experiments because that’s what everything is there’s nothing that’s like tried proven guaranteed anymore.

Shamir Duverseau: A %, not a % not. And the beautiful thing is is that you know how I react to something maybe different than how you react to something and that’s a good thing right? Because maybe we’re we’re in different segments, because we live in different parts of the country, and you might depending on your brand. You might find that you know people here in Florida react differently than people in California or New York as crazy as that sounds. we could go on a whole tangent about that. But I digress. but yeah, and then, being able to customize your website to say, well, we’re going to shoot people from Florida a little bit differently than people from California or New York again, if that makes sense for your product and services. So when you, when you’re thinking about it like that on that level. Now you’re really creating an experience that that really makes sense. And you’re in your really digging into things to say, how do I best serve that particular customer.

Stacy Jones: Well, the other word that you use, which I think is important, and that people forget about is data like with all of the resources out there with heat maps where you can actually see where people are spending time on your website. What pages are going to, what picture what words or where they’re stopping on your page.

There’s so much insights available. Well, beyond Google analytics that I think most people, unless they are a developer or really dialed into. They don’t even know exists.

Shamir Duverseau: Yeah. And you know all those things ultimately feed right. They They feed design because we all have a sense of what you know what we call best practice. Right? and and those things are real. I mean those things are by any stretch of waste of time. But I think sometimes we forget that those are really just starting points, and then we use these other tools to enhance and build off of that. so you mentioned experience analytics. You’ve got these wonderful tools. You can do things from session replays to kind of you know, tracking rage clicks for people having issues and errors on the side. you’ve got the event Analytics like Google analytics. It’s a rage click, kind of like when I hit there sit there and hit , , one on an automated dialer. That’s exactly it. That’s the telephone version of the reach Click so yeah, I I’m. Also tools that can be used and together just great insights and information, and understand what people are doing.

Stacy Jones: What are some of the common mistakes that people are making like. Besides, the fact that they’re not using data, they’re not experimenting, and they’re not using tools.

Shamir Duverseau: you know. A lot of it has to do with the good job done in marketing in the world of Sas. so sas marketers, and you know there’s a lot of tools that you and I use in a regular basis from crm tools to customer data platforms to experimentation. And you know, experience analytics, a whole bunch of others they do a really good job of making it sound like once you have this tool, like your problems are solved like you put this tool in there, and it’s going to tell you exactly what to do. You’d like you. Just this is going to give you this list of things to do, and you do all that, and you’re just % ready to go. And you know marketers are customers, too, and sometimes we buy into that. then we get the tool, and we spend a lot of money, and and then it’s just like, is anyone using this thing? Does anyone know what’s going on?

As opposed to saying, what are we trying to accomplish? Let’s lay out that strategy first, and then saying, okay, what tools do we need to accomplish that job right? So just like if I mean if you’re going to build something, you’re not going to go out and buy this expensive set of tools and then say, okay, this is going to solve all my problem. It’s just like well, you just but a bunch of auto tools and you need to build a shed. So you know it’s it’s you know. What do you need? I need to shed. Okay? Well, this is the set of tools. We need to be able to do that and accomplish that. And we really find a lot of times, you know, markers reverse that we get an average by technology, instead of understanding that the technology is just an accelerator to what it is that we’re trying to accomplish, which is a ultimately our plan and strategy that we delay out first. Yeah, it’s a good example where we use hubspot. And we started Hubspot and I I I upgraded to it, even though it was way more than at the time years ago that we needed, because it was so easy for our team to be able to use it for blogging. And now someone said, oh, I use Hubspot just for blogging it’d be like, Why do you spend that much money on software. Just to blog, but I was looking for something that was. intern proof, not idiot, internal proof that someone could go in and dial in on.

But then I learned that had so many other tools. But I needed to actually hire people to help me figure out how to do the tools, because I didn’t have the time of the day to actually do that. And so then you get clunky big technology that can save the day and do fantastic things for you. But you don’t know how to actually use it.

Shamir Duverseau: Yeah. And and we see that. And you know, from small companies to large enterprises. you know all the time that they run into that they just spend a lot more money on those tools than than you and I can probably, you know, be able to spend. But but they run this, they the exact same problems.

Stacy Jones: And so what else do people do that sometimes makes you raise your eyebrow? Go, Huh!

Shamir Duverseau: You know we we kind of talked about a little bit earlier, you know. But what happens pretty quick versus post-click, and we get kind of trapped into the idea that every problem is an advertising problem. You know, if we have an issue, and we’re not driving the kind of revenue that we want. Well, the solution is well. It’s an advertising thing like we need to spend more money, or we spend more money in the right place and that can be the problem. But a lot of times I stopped the problem. It’s that you’re You’re You’re driving good traffic a lot of times, even quality traffic. It’s just you gave the example beautifully before it’s just like, yeah, I don’t know where to go. Once I get here I I don’t know where to find what it is that I’m looking for after that click.

So it’s again that challenge of saying, I need to think through the entire experience. I need to think through certainly the add and the message and the creative. But then what happens after the person clicks? How am I playing off that message. How am I playing off that creative?

How am I delivering with the kind of information that person needs to right time? And how am I leading them all the way through the funnel to actually convert that to your point they can reduce their their customer acquisition costs, and and really maximize their add dollar. So it says, fitting all that money upfront and thinking what’s for more money at the problem.

Perhaps the issue is, Well, let’s make it easier for people to find what they’re looking for. And really that’s lower hanging fruit, because you’ve already got those people to the site. They want to do something that’s make it easier for them to do something. And now, all of a sudden, you’re You’re getting more out of the money that you’re already spending on the on the up for advertising. I mean, it’s pretty clear and easy if you’re getting a lot of people to your site, but you’re not getting

Stacy Jones: sales to actually transfer, translate into anything there. There’s a broken process somewhere, because people are not coming just to learn. People want an end, all solution, and that’s why they are there.

Shamir Duverseau: Exactly. But the easier thing to do is just that. It’s just to spend against the problem. It’s. It’s easier just to say, Well, we need to spend more on Google. We need to spend more on that. We just been more linked in. That’s easier to do, then is to investigate and understand. Where is the flaw in our easier experience? How do we address that flaw? You know we don’t want to do that scary experiment thing. You know all all those things kind of get in the way, and it’s easier to say. you know we’ll just we’ll just drive more traffic, and you know that. That’s how we’ll solve the problem, and that’s just a dangerous trap. And again, we we talk about those companies that are doing well, that are saying the standard that it really moving forward. hey’re all experimenting that. That’s how they’re moving things forward. They’re they’re iterating on what they’re doing to not just kind of settling for the status quo, and kind of covering it over, as it were, with with advertising dollars.

Stacy Jones: What are you seeing with pricing and transparency? Because I think this is a big one out there, I mean, we’re used to being able to go in, jump in and find out exactly what something costs, and then price shop it to our hearts content.

Are you finding that more companies are, you know, opening up the metrics a little bit, and letting people have insight, or is it still more of a hiddenness? That is, it’s not something that’s quite as in front and open.

Shamir Duverseau: Yeah, it’s funny. You say that because you kind of see both extremes, and I think part of that part of it, anyway, depends on the brand and how they want to position themselves. So you, you see a lot of that transparency which is always nice to see.

But then you have also, on the other extreme. You have that you know the more dynamic pricing models that are really coming into play more and more. And we see it when we, you know, when we order an Uber or anything like that right depending on the time of day. And what part of the part of the city that we’re in we see that dynamic pricing really come in the the play. Which can be for the consumer, you know it. It could be a a huge challenge. It could be something that customers can or the companies can really take advantage of it. It kind of just depends how the brands position it and how they use it. You can understand your business to make money, so you’re trying to maximize the dollars that you’re trying to make in a particular situation.

Shamir Duverseau: But you know there’s a fine line between maximizing that and alienating the consumer, because you feel like you’re you’re just trying to, you know. Kill me with with fees, and you’re trying to squeeze every last dollar from my soul, you know, as opposed to saying, hey, just just, you know. Just be fair with me and transparent about what this is going to cost, and what this is going to do. So we we’ve seen that both cases depending on the product and service that’s being offered and I think it’s really about how it’s positioned. Right. How how you’re positioning it, how you’re kind of communicating what you’re doing from a pricing standpoint so that people can understand like, hey? It’s it’s busier. So you know we’re gonna charge more. It’s. It’s a premium in principle. People understand that they may not like it, but they, you know they understand it in principle. SoIt’s amazing how long one will try to wait out that uber with it rising prices. Come on! Is it gonna go down in  min? Let’s see. Maybe you’ll wait.

Stacy Jones: No, I think that with pricing is also it’s really difficult sometimes because you lose some storytelling like you. It’s it’s a very easy thing for someone, you know, with fast pricing. You see it, we’re used to software. We can see what you’re purchasing, and then that is it. And it’s listed on the website. Or But when it starts getting into some more specialties and tweaks and things along those lines. Unless you’ve done a really good job. Being very clear about how everything works, you can lose people, and that’s the scary thing about transparency.

Shamir Duverseau: you know. Sometimes it’s you. You want to give people a lot of credit to kind of figure things out on their own but you know, when you’re in shopping mode you know you want the least amount of friction as possible, and the more work you have to do, especially if you’re in a rush. You’re trying to maybe buy something between meetings at work, or you’re trying to get something on your phone while you’re in the waiting room, or something like that. You you don’t have time for that friction like you know it’s just like you know what i’ll just do it later and unfortunately, a lot of times do it later is, do it? Never it just. It never comes back up. So it’s so important to capture that consumer in the moment, and the only way to do that is to make it very simple and very straightforward, so that you don’t get that that friction in that confusion that can be caused by as you just like you mentioned just having just too many components to me pieces and parts. as you too much math and the fly to try to figure out exactly what this is going to cost me in order to make that purchase. I want to make.

Stacy Jones: What are other things that people do that Sometimes You wonder why your clients have gone down this path?

I think I, You know. Sometimes we we run into clients, and I wonder what they’re thinking in terms of what they need from a resource standpoint. so whether it’s a third party agency like ourselves, or whether there’s there’s hiring internally. I wonder what they think in terms of the skill set they need. I don’t think they sometimes don’t quite understand the the importance and value of having specialists. Journalists are certainly extraordinarily valuable to, but you also need to have the specialists, and sometimes it comes, and this is probably an extreme example. But it’s like, hey, we we have, we have this, this person who can code, their developer. Oh, and they know that analytics stuff, too. So we haven’t do our analytics, and it’s just like well, I mean, i’m sure they know some of that. But you you kind of treat them like a check of all trades, and you probably really want someone who’s an analyst to do your analytics, and you want someone who’s a developer to do your coding right? and just not understanding the the value of that. Sometimes they end up hurting themselves by not having the right specialists in in place or the right specialty resources in place to really say, okay, this is what we’re going to do from a paid media management standpoint.

This is what we’re doing in terms of data analysis. This is what we do in terms of design. This is what we’re going to do in terms of coding it’s. I think, the value of having a you know, a specialist just like when you go to see the doctor. if you have a particular problem.

Yeah. Doctors are generalists, and they they’re trained in a lot of things. But you know, if I have a problem with my heart. I’d like someone to spend a few years studying the heart specifically, you know, if I have a problem with my brain, i’d like to speak to someone who spent a few years studying the brain specifically because they’re going to be more likely to be able to more quickly identify my problem.

Shamir Duverseau: They’re going to give me more options in terms of how to how to deal with my problem. So in the same way, you’re gonna get more options. You’re you’re gonna get along the road farther. If you get people who are who are specialists in certain areas as opposed to kind of minimizing the importance of certain areas of of digital marketing by kind of just saying, Well, this person can do that too

Stacy Jones: well. If anyone out there has who’s listening has ever hired someone who was supposed to do your back end and your front end of either database or a website. You know the sheer utter hell you have thrown yourself into, because those are very different mindsets and skill sets. have experienced that pain in my core, probably, and learn that lesson the hard way. I have done it many times myself, and I’ve seen a lot of clients do it Also, do you think that someone who knows how to do web development can just do web development doesn’t mean. They know how to write, and it does not know it mean that they know how to do graphics.

Shamir Duverseau: Exactly. It’s it’s like walk. Oh, you’re You’re a doctor like I like I have a pain in my arm like, yeah, I’m: I that kind of doctor. I specialize in that. And sometimes we don’t know something, or we don’t understand it’s it’s just to kind of clump it all together and just kind of say, Well, you you do that. Oh, you know how that Internet. Thing works. Okay, Well help me with this. and it’s like what the Internet thing is is pretty buried in diverse like in that. That’s not my hair or specialty. So, helping people to better understand that which I think people are starting to come along, and that right in that. What realm! But there’s still a good road to go there. So now one of the things you were talking about was experimenting and making sure that you’re going back. And you’re revisiting your website, and you’re tweaking it. And you’re adding to it now, one of the ways to fast track that. And I think something that Google really likes with the SEO is, if you’re adding content that is valuable. So is that something that you work with your clients on a lot with like, whether it’s blog or video or other, content to help make their websites more robust beyond the actual general structure.

Yeah, for sure, I mean leveraging content. You know whether it’s showing subject matter, expertise or or giving tips for customers that that your your particular profile all those things are super valuable. They certainly help rank on Google and drive that quality traffic and then to your point. When it comes to experimentation, it’s it’s saying, okay, Well, how do we deliver and structure this content in a way that’s gonna say, okay, now that I understand this now that my question’s been answered, what’s kind of next logical step in this process? It could be a micro conversion, it could be. Well, how about you? Sign up for an email and and hear a little more from us about this right?

And then in the email. Then the Content now plays different role, because now it’s like, Well, how do we build value in the brand and value in our products and services to kind of move in to say, oh, okay, Well, maybe I actually want to purchase this, or I want to sign up for this. So content. Play such a critical role. It’s a matter of trying to position the right content and the right time in the right way, which again. it all comes down to experimentation.

And even when you experiment, and you kind of get that , rule, and you’re like, okay, I’ve got it working for like % of the people, which is great.

Then you kind of take the data and you break that % of people down into those different target segments. And then, you understand? Well, it works really well for this segment, but not at all well for this segment. Okay, Great? Well, that’s that’s target this segment of people with this process that we already have to find in this content. And how we’re showing it that what is this segment need to? How we target them, which then brings a whole other set of robust experimentation. So experimentation becomes this: this big cycle, this this, this deep cycle. The problem is that people are scared to get started, and that that really is the whole people back data Scientist: I am far from that. That’s a specialty. I don’t have. I’m not that kind of doctor

Stacy Jones: with the admin of AI, and we’re hearing about that a lot right now, and that’s affecting website that’s affecting content. I mean. Gosh ! You can now actually have Jarvis or another entity online, right? Your content for you. Where do you see this going? What do you think is gonna happen in the future.

Shamir Duverseau: you know. I think it’s gonna speed up the process, so to speak. and when I say that what I mean is, we talked a lot about experimentation iteration already. I think it’s going to speed up the process of experimentation. Iteration.I don’t think that’s ever going to go away. we we humans are a finicky bunch we’re. We’re pretty hard to figure out, even for a really smart computer. You know we change a lot. we have a lot of the market is constantly in flux, and changing competitors are changing. so the idea of experimenting iterating is constant. I think AI is going to feed that cycle and allow us to to make those experiments and change a lot faster on a much faster scale than we have before. which is good because we have all this data that you know we’ve been gathering all these last few years that has become so so big. Now it’s an opportunity to really leverage and use that data on a consistent basis and really start cut, pushing out iterations and seeing where it can take us.

Stacy Jones: Well, how can I? How can our listeners find out more about you? They’re like I have a website. I need to figure out what to do with this, or maybe i’m doing a good job. Maybe i’m not.

Stacy Jones: How can they reach out?

Shamir Duverseau: Well, they can certainly reach us at smart panda labs.com

Shamir Duverseau: or if they just want to kind of check out how I think about things and see if it resonates and make sense to them. They can certainly follow me on Linkedin. I I try to share my thoughts there consistently, and and that way it’s a good way to judge and kind of. Say, you know this guy makes sense, or you know he’s completely out of his mind. I want nothing to do with them. So either way they they get to the side.

Stacy Jones: Are there any last words of parting advice? If you had to say this year, this is what you need to do. What would you tell our listeners?

Shamir Duverseau: Be determined if you haven’t already to run your first a. B test, just just run, run, run the test. Get a taste for for what it is to experiment, and have your customers tell you what’s a better way to do this rather than depending on your experience or your gut to make that decision.

Stacy Jones: Well, Shamir, thank you so much for joining us today. I know that I love talking about this and here, and it makes my wheels turn in my head about all the things that we need to do, and i’m lucky that we have some good people on our team to help us out. But if someone needs help, please reach out to Shamira, Look into the opportunities. There’s so much that you can do to completely decapitate your business. If you have not dialed in your website, it’s really one of the most important aspects of your business today, unless you just have people stopping by a retail storefront.

Stacy Jones: and don’t ever have to find you, and they just stumble on you, because that’s how they’re finding you.

Stacy Jones: so thank you really do appreciate it. Thank you so much. I really enjoyed being on. I’m so happy. You had me, of course, and then to our listeners. Thank you all for tuning in to another episode of marking mistakes, and how to avoid them. I look forward to chatting with you this next week. Until then, if you have any questions about how to leverage your own

Stacy Jones: content in other people’s world, such as with influencers or product, placement and movies and TV shows and getting your brand front and center. Please reach out to my agency, Hollywood Brandon, and we look forward to chatting with You have a great one.