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Transcript For This Episode:

Stacy Jones:
Welcome to marketing mistakes and how to avoid them I’m Stacey Jones and i’m so happy to be here with you all today, and I want to give a very warm welcome to Ben Lund.Ben is the founder of Rise Marketing group, a performance marketing agency focused on advertising, SEO email marketing and social media over his year career and marketing. Ben has worked for companies, including Monster Yahoo, Rim Kaufman group and Google. He now helps companies marking directors and other entrepreneurs drive business growth through strategic marketing and advertising.Today Ben and I are going to be chatting about, measuring business growth and roi through digital marketing practices. We’ll learn what works from Ben’s perspective, what should be avoided, and how some companies just miss the mark. Ben, welcome! so happy to have you here today.Bend Lund:
Yeah, that’s crazy. It’s on. It’s like a. You know the talking heads that once in a lifetime song.Stacy Jones:
How did I get here?Bend Lund:
Great question, how did I get here? I graduated from Umass Amherst Heisenberg School business. undergrad in. I just liked marketing classes. Those are the fun ones. So i’m like all right. I should probably stick within marketing. And then, earlier in my career, I worked at, and that was a thing you know. You look for jobs. You would look at monster.I wasn’t I was in, add sales, and by add sales that makes some way more glamorous. And it actually was. I was just cold calling and dialing for dollars and calling folks a day to try and sell job postings.

I paid well. it was a good job. It was not a good career, at least for me but I took them like, okay, I like this whole internety thing that i’m doing. And yeah. So then I was like, okay, i’m gonna leave Monster.

Let’s look out there. And then I got a huge break early my career. Someone knew someone who was hiring at Yahoo and at the time in the mid , . Yeah, who was kind of a big deal still like oh, had a strong amount of search volume. Compared to Google, Everyone went to the Yahoo homepage, the portal to the Internet.

And I was a an account manager, and I worked with great brands like comcast fidelity, and I just learned so much. And then over there. so that’s just like solidified me of like I love marketing. I love digital marketing. I love internet marketing like everything in online. And then I just kept on that path and then worked at an agency Kg: room Kaufman group since acquired by Merkel.

And then I ended up at Google because again, someone knew someone who was hiring. I’m like well shoot. I should probably go for it because it’s Google and you love marketing. So that’s a pretty good spot. And I was there for a few years. But I left Google because throughout, let’s say, the last years or so I always wanted to do my own thing. I always wanted to do be an entrepreneur. I never knew what exactly that would be, but then eventually hit me. I’m like Well, you’ve been doing digital marketing for a long time. Why, don’t you sell that as a service. And then took that giant leap and founded Rise Marketing group almost years ago. It was a little over and a half years ago. And let’s bet a ton of fun.

Stacy Jones:
Well. First of all, I happen. I know you worked at Google, but you’re talking about Yahoo, where you also work, and I love Yahoo like I still am one of those like Diehards, I think, like reading on Yahoo. So i’m glad it’s still I still doesn’t it. I I don’t know if I check my yahoo mail it’s probably loaded with spam, but I do go to the home page.

Bend Lund:
Yeah. Find memories for sure. It’s still ticking along. So with Google, like everyone wants to know, I mean so many hours. So much money is spent and trying to figure out how to optimize your website. So Google, can you know, do the Holy Grail of Woo delivering you to your customer base and get you sales. So you’re helping brands right now, really kind of understand and master through and figure out how to actually stand out on something that is one of the number one ways to actually get your business found absolutely and no doubt i’m biased on our agency, but it does help having someone that was an insider at Google.

To you know, What? Where should that effort be focused? What’s nothing’s really fluff at Google. But like prioritization. There’s always there’s level of priority. What should be Number one on a media plan Number media plan and then sherry. If you want to try some testing and try this and that. But Google is an excellent AD platform. It’s not the only platform we work on, but it’s an excellent one, and if you can really engineer it.

It can do wonders for businesses, but it takes a lot of time investment and know how to like really get into it a good spot.

Stacy Jones:
So when you say you know number one, number , what are those number ones? Number ? Is, what should you be doing as someone who is trying to

Bend Lund:
Find business make business happen? Yeah. So let’s say for it. So it always depends on goals. So if your goals like you know.

Bend Lund:
We have a a new product or new brand. I just want to drive away a nice and consideration. That’s more upper funnel. And that would be more just. Let’s say Youtube, or display ads.

But most of our clients they want. They want customers. They want new customers. They want repeat customers like we sell these products or services. I want customers. So for those businesses, some of that number one number , I mean, sounds silly. But Google search is like Google is made a legitimate fortune with their search ads because they work really really well, because you can have your AD shown at that exact moment that someone is in market searching for the product or services that you offer.

However, it is very competitive, and you really need to know you need to know all the nuances of it and set a proper measurement so that way the system can learn what plates are gonna are more likely than not to drive conversions. Now, that’s number one. And then, just to answer your question number performance. Max is an awesome campaign type that Google rolled out in early.

It’s pretty much all algorithmically derived where you upload a bunch of assets. So text headlines, descriptions, images, Video: just upload it to Google. Give it a couple of signals of audiences of like, hey, check out these audiences. You’re not going to explicitly target them, but keep them in mind.

Set up proper measurement, and you’re going to start to see a team and how we chat about marketing. Here measurement is number one. And then it will go and find customers. we’ve been very pleased with performance, Max. We just released a blog post on that for both lead Gen. As well as Ecom. So that’s just a little teaser on some of the plays. But again, it it really depends on what the goals of the program is.

Stacy Jones:
Well, can people nowadays actually have success and and be found if they are not doing paid advertising on Google? If someone just went for an organic approach. Are they going to be successful and able to be successful as a business? What would they need to do if that was indeed their direction?

Bend Lund:
You can be successful. You need a ton of patience, though you need a ton of patience. But we encourage every client pretty much. I say any client that is expecting to be in business. And let’s say, to years from now you should do SEO search engine optimization, but we have that requisite. Now, if this is a a startup company like, yeah, we offer this. How many customers do you have, and not too many? We’re just getting off the ground.

You they don’t even know if they’re gonna be in business a couple of years of like forget SEO that’s gonna cause you’re not even going to start to see, return until multiple quarters out from that initial effort, that initial lift. But for businesses that are viable, they make money. They make profit. They expect to be in business in a couple of years, I say, absolutely should be doing SEO and early on it’s not going to be profitable. you’re going to lose money off it, because you’re putting a bunch of money into content which you really need to think through provide value-driven content to your keyword research, and on identifying gaps where it’s not as competitive.

You need to get your story out there and have other websites Reference the great work that you’re doing, and over time, if you keep up the content and get another sites to link to you and make sure you have a optimized say, from a technical perspective you will see rewards and over time. I believe that SEO is more profitable than paid ads. If you do it for a long time so initially first couple of quarters it’s not profitable at all. But then you’re gonna hit this break, even plane, and then it just takes off. Where is paid total opposite.

Let’s say, first month or , or even . You’re not that profitable, but you’re learning your figure out who your audience is, but then it then it catches on, and it’s pretty very consistent in terms of profitability.

So yeah, it is possible. But you need a lot of patients and get an SEO to work.

Stacy Jones:
Yeah, we approached it where, back in , , I started writing our blog, and that was awesome long time ago. If you think it for you, you’re adding the trend. Yeah, yeah, I know. And we have thousands of blogs. At this point I I I ended up recruiting my team to start writing to it’s now a mandate of our agency that it’s part of we have something that’s called learn. Do teach, and so you have to learn that you have to do it. You have to teach it in order to be able to pass knowledge along and to foster for clients. and that’s really intrinsic into who we are and the culture of our agencies very educational.

But it’s been beneficial, because when we write those blogs, and we write that content. It is there now, sticking a decade later, and especially when we write where it’s not, you know it’s very, you know why, topically. where it’s something that’s going to be evergreen. And so I am a massive proponent on SEO optimized content. where I know our agency could certainly do better, because I think you know, we have gone in for the last years on we have content, podcast, blog, social, and of course, everything that we do as an agency of getting our clients into other people’s content through product, placement, and influence for marketing but ads and actually paying has a actual a it helps it. Boost. It does something for you that just organics not going to do on your own.

Bend Lund:
Yeah. So it’s good. It’s good to have a nice. It’s good to have a nice diversified Mix and kudos to you for all the content that you put out there. So not only are you getting month over month but I believe that even also helps out from conversion rates, because if someone goes to your website versus a better. And then they say, oh, my gosh! Look at all the great content that stacy’s team put on like they definitely know what they’re doing.

They’re more probably more likely to work with you that another one that’s just a whatever landing page, maybe same expertise. But they’re not showing it and sharing it.

Yeah, it it definitely. It establishes expertise. It raises you about your competitors, and when you’re able to say that all of your competitors come to you to learn, and you actually have the back of data to show it. It’s it’s definitely helpful in that regard.

Stacy Jones: But what are some of the mistakes that some of your clients make. Typically so. When you’re working with them, you know they’re a new company. They haven’t done too much out there like, Where do? Where should they start off? And where do they sometimes tend to go wrong.

Bend Lund:
Some clients that we’ve worked with in the past and are working with. Sometimes they just don’t know who their target audience is, and i’m sure you come across this quite a bit.

So, for example, you might have You know a company that they’re just. They have this expectation of who their target audience is but they don’t know for sure. And then the mistake is it? They don’t really have the data to back up. They just kind of think or a that feeling so to rectify any potential mistake of like. Okay, Well, let’s just go to market. I have this segment just based off of gut feeling what we like to do if they let’s say, have Google analytics and some decent tracking set up.

Do some analysis it. Who is their target audience? Is it what they think it is. Sometimes it is, sometimes it isn’t like, hey, You know what you you’re telling me. Your audience is this. But all your customers are actually this audience.

If you want to get into this audience. That’s fine, your original one. We can have a campaign for that. But I don’t want to negate all these people that are actually buying from you. So that’s a big one of just really understanding, and that will evolve for any business over time, and that can change. But as a source of truth, we really like using Google analytics and making sure all measurements set up of. We’re a lead generation or transactions. Just so that way you can do some really good analysis to understand who your customers are, not only different attributes of what they do online. But also are they in the northeast? Are they the West coast? Are they younger, demographic, older things like that?

Stacy Jones:
And so, besides demographics? And besides setting that up. What else should you be looking out for? So you know your core is. I want to hit this audience. And obviously you know what your top, differentiators are what your messaging is. You’ve you’ve You’re not new at doing all of this.

But how should you approach? How do you figure out? You know, or is it just doing keyword search and trying to figure out what you know it is trending how you out and different differentiate even more?

Bend Lund:
Yeah, definitely. So there’s a bunch of things. So let’s say, for example, working with a client, and we identify an audience or that frequently buy from them so like great. Let’s go after that, and then yes, then it comes down into a lot of the keyword research of like, okay, what are people searching in this category. What do they want to know?

And then it goes into creating the ads like what messaging really relates to them, or resonate to them, and then the landing page. But what we like to do is create a couple of different campaigns, and maybe different type of audiences. And then within each we might even have different creative. And once we, the beauty of Google ads and a lot of advertising platforms is, you can get data like quite fast and then so you can go after different audience segments. Let’s say different campaigns, different audiences.

And then send them all to the same landing page, or maybe different iterations. And then we can just see, like, how are they interacting with your brand? And then and then that’s an easy optimization of. If one audience is doesn’t, work well, for whatever reason, let’s kill it or optimize and see if we can get to profitability. And the ones that we find that are just working. Let’s give it more budget, more opportunity to grow.

So what you’re saying is digital marketing is an ever evolving, continuously moving target that you’re working. It is not a set. It set it and forget it shop. But I wish it was. I mean that’d be pretty easy.

Would probably be way more profitable, which is like up. We set up, and it’s just cruising along. You need to be super active, always looking at the data First, absolutely.

And you have to do this because well, reasons. One. It’s more and more competitive every day. We quarter, and then expectations from the consumer and digital users are significantly higher now than years ago, years ago, years ago.

I mean when I was in ads. Yeah, years ago you could have a pretty garbage site selling whatever product, and if you served it to the a person who was in market for their products. It they would they? You could still get some good profit out of it. But now things are different. Users look for frictionless experiment. like experiences, thanks to Amazon for better for us.

They want. They’re looking for reviews. They’re looking even for does that brand align with that user like. Are they ethically responsible, or like whatever it is? So times have changed, and you need to up level your site and generally your business to meet the needs and expectations of consumers.

Stacy Jones:
And so when you’re starting to work with someone and you have them as a client, what are the in general areas that you’re most diving into to figure out. If Google is going to be their friend.

Bend Lund:
Yeah. and Google may not be their friend. I mean, I do believe that Google can work for pretty much about everyone, just because such a massive platform they have so many tools at their disposal.

But we are very much platform agnostic. So for example, Google Meta Ads. So Facebook, Instagram, Microsoft, which is lot of folks don’t talk about little Microsoft and thing, but it’s a great platform.

Usually less competitive and decent. Conversion rates linkedin for B to B is awesome. But so with that platform agnostic view, we’ll launch on Google, and we’ll say, hey, can we get things going? And let’s say we launch on Google and meta for an e-commerce client. And let’s say our hunch is like, well based off past experience with similar clients. Google should do pretty well. Let’s say it doesn’t, or maybe it’s just a little bit above break even. But Meta, Facebook, Instagram is just going gamebusters. I’m not gonna to spend all of our time to like force Google to try to make it work, I’d say, let’s feed the winners.

Bend Lund:
If social ads is where it’s at. For whatever reason, maybe it’s a new product. It’s very visual and shareable.

Let’s just lean into that. So that’s one thing like we’re never. We’re not just. We are a Google Ads Agency. Yes, we do that for a lot of our clients, but we are not the sometimes it’s even using the other platforms like a radio, which is a which is Dsp, which you can serve on a dozen different platforms through it. So it’s always good to have just an unbiased view data first, that is going to tell you what’s working, what’s not and then go from there.

Stacy Jones:
Okay. And what are some of the mistakes that people make with that. So when you say? Hey, let’s move you over, and do you ads? Do they jump in and go too big to start? Do you jump in and people start too small? Or do they think that they’re going to get overnight expectations and are not realistic? And the fact that you know it takes time to fit this, and create good copy and ads and test market.

Bend Lund:
All of the above. This is good. in terms of mistakes. majority of our clients we have good budgets, and when I say good, it doesn’t mean lofty budgets it’s a budget that’s suitable enough to get some good data to see what’s going to work and what’s not going to work, and they really that’s what we strive for. And I personally, i’m always on the side of just taking it more conservative on budget. We really look at our advertising budgets like as we’re spending our own money.

You don’t need to spend K. A month to see if a landing page works or an audience works. You don’t even need to spend K. Or K. You can get the data as long as you have proper measurement and pretty much real time, and early on you can get some nice indicators of what’s going to work and what’s not so budget. It needs to be a good budget. Good doesn’t mean. A big budget just means to be sufficient to get a reasonable amount of data to make some decisions and give any platform an optimal time Next one is definitely expectation setting where.

When you launch a program don’t expect conversions. Conversions mean transactions or leads day one day, or even week, one when you launch, you build up the campaigns and then you launch you like, okay, Are we getting impressions our AD servants to. Are we getting clicks to our website?

What are they doing on the website? Are they just bouncing, or they hanging in there. And will you get some conversions early on? Probably I don’t. I don’t really advertise that because you you don’t know until you know. And then, after a week or . Then we for start, say, like, okay, ads are serving.

We’re getting a lot of traffic to site. And now we should start to get conversions, and if we don’t get conversions then that raises some good questions. How is the website? How is the landing page?

Are we reaching the right audience, and or are we not reaching the right audience? And the landing page is great?

So there’s a lot of things. So in terms of mistakes to avoid is a proper expectation setting of what’s that process to get into a profile program which I can take some time to in terms of or yeah, in terms of add budget, and then mentioned this once or twice, but make sure you have great measurements. So any other platform they are advertising on. In this case, Google, make sure you have the Google, Pixel setup or Meta. Make sure you have the Facebook pixel set up linkedin so forth and so on, and conversion events. And then I we also like to do a another conversion. Set it up, or through Google analytics, to be like the holistic source of truth to see how everything works, because in the past, sometimes some platforms would over account conversions, and you look at ga like that doesn’t match up.

The truth is probably somewhere in between those platforms, but it’s just good to have another platform just to confirm what the AD platforms are saying, but make sure you have all that measurement set up, and that is a mistake. That’s probably the most counting mistake that I see where we tell you, take over accounts, and they just don’t have proper measurement. I’m like, Well, we’re in an age of automation and machine learning. How is Google going to get good at serving your ads and hand your goals if you’re not feeding at the right information and same thing for Facebook.

Stacy Jones:
What are some of the changes we’re going to see in the years ahead, do you think, with Google more automation machine learning?

Bend Lund:
Absolutely. So I mentioned earlier on like, Yes. So what are the top? campaigns? We should try, and, like all, depends on your goal. But if you’re a direct response, marketer search, and then performance. Max. So Performance Max is kind of a game changer for Google, where you’re not saying, Hey! Google show ads based of these keywords that people are searching, or this audience, or it’s pretty much just giving Google a ton of great data set up purple conversion tracking. Hey, here’s my landing page, and here a bunch of add assets.

Here’s my goal cost per acquisition target, for example. And then you say, Google have added, and their algorithms are insanely good where it will drive performance. But getting to answer your question where marketing is going to go for Google and beyond, and probably other platforms, it’s more of this more of managing the machine.

Marketers and agencies are not gonna go away. Years ago people are gonna be like, oh, in automation. There’s gonna be no agencies. Everyone’s gonna be out of a job.

Honestly, you probably need more expertise now than you’ve ever had to. Because you’re training these machines, these marketing algorithms on how to work, and if you don’t know what you’re doing, you’re feeding it. You’re probably going to feed it. Bad information. It’s just going to like. Throw you totally off trajectory.

Bend Lund:
Yeah, and you know it’s so easy to think that this is how it’s going to be and how it’s going to stick. And without having that insight. And like, as soon as you learn one thing, Google or any of the other platforms out there makes a change and everything goes out. It used to be about Panda and this and that, but on a revolving weekly basis there are changes always changes a ton with SEO. I mean. You probably look at the websites like search engine land. They’re always we’re going through changes. And then Google is always rolling out New beta test and then roll them out to the public. There’s always changes, and for to be successful at Advertiser there’s a lot of things that you need to do, but it also helps to be pivot to these changes. So when there’s new opportunities, you’re like, oh, got it. I’m going to jump at this before all my compares to, and then you do almost stake your claim at being a leader in this. And then you might have a nice runway before everyone else catches up to you.

Stacy Jones:
Yeah, that makes sense. And so what are If you had to give someone? You know these are the things you need to do this year. What would you say to them? And I know that’s really really generic and hard, because it depends on who you’re talking to.

Bend Lund:
Yeah. So one of the things I want to say that a lot of people talk about is nothing new but very rarely people rarely do people do it, and that is carving out a test budget.

And so let’s say your marketing budget K month, or K. A month. Carve out to % of that budget to try new things, because if you’re not
pushing the envelope, trying new channels, new campaigns like, truly, how are you going to grow by just optimizing your existing campaigns.

So i’ll be very I would. Oh, and he’s doing budgeting for this year , . I would definitely carve out budget for testing, because that is just going to help you out long term to keep that keep that leadership position or gain that leadership position.

So that’s number one really either really get comfortable with data, whether that’s themselves or someone on their team, just because we have so much data, our disposal, which is a great thing and it can give a lot of answers to questions that we may have on our marketing. I would invest in talent on team to let’s say, set up Google analytics for whichever it should be migrating to. Now. if they haven’t done so already, and really look at the data. Who are our customers? What are they doing on our website?

Bend Lund:
Is our website good from a point of engagement? Are they bouncing right away like just get comfortable with data, because that is the answers are all there. You just need to mind through it. So doesn’t mean that everyone has to take these master classes on Google analytics, but hire an agency. Hire someone on your team, get comfortable with data. So we talked about a test budget get comfortable with that.

And then third thing I would say, just kind of on the fly here.

Not a I would say, this is not a again, not a novel idea, but very important, that a lot of people overlook.

Put your customers first, How does your website look to them. Are you solving their needs?

And it’s easy to have a product or a campaign. Excuse me a website or campaign that’s me. Me, i’m so good. Look at me. We’re the best ever.

Who cares like? Think about the customer? And what do they want to see what’s gonna make them feel at ease, and you can get some great data by interviewing your existing customers or just serving folks.

And if you just keep that user focused or your customer focus that’s going to help across all channels. That’s not just digital. That’s everything.

Stacy Jones: So, man, how can people find you If someone wanted to find you and have a conversation and hire your agency rise, M or just Google Rise Marketing Group.

You’ll find our website. And yeah, if interested, check out our website, our services, and we have contact page our numbers there, or just does it fill out a countly link, and then we’ll schedule, a just a free marketing assessment. What are you looking to accomplish? Let’s look at the data. What’s the opportunity for you and just go from there perfect.

Stacy Jones:
And so if you’re thinking about marketing in , we know that obviously Google and all of the search engines are constantly reinvigorating themselves, let’s say. what do you think are new trends that we’re seeing? Going to see shortly?

Bend Lund: Yeah. So there is a lot of trends that are happening. So I talked about machine learning automation. That’s going to continue so PIN that just keep that up there.

There’s also a lot of economic trends that are happening, so, as it stands right now in January , there’s always talks, are we? In a recession? Do we start in recession months ago? Are we going into one.

But we are seeing that impact combined behavior. So keep that in mind with whatever your go to market.

Either pricing or messaging is just to be aware of this. This isn’t pre-covid, and times are pretty good, even though everyone can always complain about anything. so there’s there’s different trends, even economically in macro trends that you need to think about.

Bend Lund:
Maybe your conversions rate rates might be a little bit lower this year over last year. How can you differentiate yourself? do you have to revisit your price and things like that? So that’s another good one. or that.

I believe, is good that you should probably keep in mind of these macro trends that’s going to impact everything.

And then another trend. And this is just marketing overall, which kind of goes to user experience and SEO is always provide value for the user and Google. All their SEO updates is, I know, you know, Stacy has always been user first provide great experience for the user and that’s how Google will turn into an awesome search engine because they’re only prioritizing sites that are provide real good value to the user but that it has been a trend ongoing and will not go away. that’s on Google for anything that you put on your website, but also even add quality from Google, Ads or Meta Ads have good ads, because the engines and the and platforms will reward you if you have garbage ads but a budget.

They’ll still serve it. But you’re gonna pay a premium, a premium, Cpc: so make sure you’re just putting out quality value driven user first content.

Easy to say hard to do for sure but that’s what I would continue you in , .

One of the things that we’re seeing also is a new rise in artificial intelligence, written word where you can use platforms like Jarvis and others where they’re generating content for you. How is your agency approaching that?

Bend Lund:
Yeah. So I’m not one to say, oh, you can’t use it. A BoT wrote it. That means it’s bad content. I don’t believe that to be true. However, I do believe that you can’t rely on BoT driven content. So what I would recommend to do for anyone who is exploring this.

Don’t Just rely on the algorithms, use that to, maybe supplement, or maybe even do research of what people might be interested in, but always provide your own pov based off of your experiences or your team’s experiences.

So because that is unique to anyone, can go to Jarvis, and if that’s what the name of the website forget what it is that you just mentioned it. and just write an article of top tips for email marketing. It’s going to be the exact same that so this can probably be a lot of duplicate content. But if you want to explore that. I’m fine with it but have your own pov. So you could say top tips of email marketing or SEO. It’s going to spit, You know a couple of different things. Prove it to make sure it’s accurate that you would stand behind it, and then say, here are the top trends and this is our take, and why these are important, so always adding that value-driven content. It will be really, really interesting to see how Google approaches this. No doubt Google’s been aware of this probably for years.

Now, I don’t know, but focus on the user and add something that is truly a value and not something that could just be duplicated or even a times over on a do a bunch of different blogs. Yeah, it’s so interesting. It’s like, how many times can Google take the exact same question that one company after another after another asset and delivers it in a new way. And as humans. We do it really. Well, we take it, we interpret it. We put our own information in it. We can add in our own thought processes to it, and i’d love how you said, you know, use the AI, but then add yourself into it as well. Because you would think that eventually it’s just going to be a wasteland of okay. Here are articles on the top ways to, and it’ll just be like garbage articles in folks are reading, I mean. Eventually you’ll even be able to pick up like.

Is this right for drive a real value? This is the same stuff that I read day in and day out. So anyone who is a % focused on just having the machine right? Everything I think they’re gonna be an early benefactor of it. But then they’re going to experience some pain down the road, as people did when they started gaming backlinks and buying a bunch of shady links, and they gained it, but then they suffered from it. So do it the right way. Trust your gut. If you think this is played within the rules.

Stacy Jones:
Yeah, that’s the that can be a nice barometer. I can see years from now hiring agencies to add errors to the AI, just so that the written word has a little bit of a human touch to it. Just wait.

Well, Ben, thank you so much for joining us today. Really enjoyed chatting with you, and having our audiences and myself learn from all of your insight, greatly appreciate it. Yeah, thanks so much, Stacey. I appreciate it. And to all of our listeners. Thank you for tuning into another episode of marking mistakes, and how to avoid them. I look forward to chatting with you this next week, and until then, if you have any questions on how you can leverage pop culture and get your brand to other people’s content, because today we’ve really been focused on your own content. Give us a call at Hollywood, brand it, and I look forward to chatting with you soon.

Stacy Jones:
Have a great one.

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