EP283: The Importance Of Audience Research With Rand Fishkin | SparkToro

In today’s episode, Stacy sits down with Rand Fishkin, who is the Co-founder and CEO of SparkToro, a Seattle-based tech start-up that provides tools for audience intelligence and market research.

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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to Marketing Mistakes and How to Avoid Them.Speaker 1 (00:10):
Here’s your host, Stacy Jones.Stacy Jones (00:13):
Welcome to Marketing Mistakes and How to Avoid Them. I’m Stacy Jones, and I’m so happy to be here with you all today and want to give a very warm welcome to Rand Fishkin. Rand is the co-founder and CEO of SparkToro, a Seattle based tech startup that provides tools for audience intelligence and market research. His platform grants you extensive data about the online behaviors of any audience. So that you can better understand what they watch, read and listen to. Rand is also the co-founder and prior CEO of Moz and the SEO insight software that helps brand create stronger inbound marketing. As well, he’s the author of Lost and Founder: Aw Painfully Honest Field Guide to the Startup World.

Stacy Jones (00:54):
Today Rand and I are going to be chatting about how to leverage your audiences online behavior. We’ll learn what works from Rand’s perspective, what should be avoided and how some businesses miss the mark. Rand, welcome. So happy to have you here today.

Rand Fishkin (01:08):
Yeah. Great to be here, Stacy. Thanks for having me.

Stacy Jones (01:10):
Well, I am delighted to be chatting with you. And what I’d love to do is have you start off by sharing with our listeners, what got you to here today? How did you become not just an incredibly successful founder of a startup once, but now you’re doing it again.

Rand Fishkin (01:31):
So if the question is, how did I become an entrepreneur the first time? The answer is very accidentally, with a long rambling story that involves dropping out of college. And then starting to work on a web design business with my mom that eventually turned into an SEO blog and then a consulting business, then the software business that became Moz. But if the question is the second time, that’s maybe more straightforward answer where I’m sure you’ll identify with this. I felt like I had a lot left to prove.

Stacy Jones (02:12):
But now you have a whole new endeavor with all things, audience insights. And I think that’s probably an area that a lot of our listeners were like, “Audience insights? Like, why do I need to care about my audience insights? I’m telling them what they need to know about me. that’s enough.”

Rand Fishkin (02:29):
I don’t need to know anything about my customers or the people I want to become customers.

Stacy Jones (02:34):
I know what they need.

Rand Fishkin (02:35):
No, no. Thankfully, unlike SEO in my early days where a lot of people did have the, why should I care about how Google ranks things? And why should I care about that? Now, obviously, a lot of people care about how Google ranks web pages.

Stacy Jones (02:50):

Rand Fishkin (02:51):
But in the early years, that was not like this. The nice part about audience research is almost no one, no entrepreneur, no marketer says, “I don’t need to know more about my customers and my audience.” So thankfully, we have that going for us, I think that’s actually really helped SparkToro get off the ground. Is there’s not a lot of pushback when we say, “Oh, you should probably know more about the audience that you want to turn into customers.” And marketers, entrepreneurs, CEOs are like, “Yes, yes, I do want that.”

Rand Fishkin (03:24):
And the way that SparkToro goes about this is, I think the only thing that’s quite different. Because historically, market research, audience research has been surveys and interviews.

Stacy Jones (03:36):
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Rand Fishkin (03:37):
Which I like. I like doing surveys and interviews, I think they can be very valuable, useful tools. I wouldn’t tell anyone to stop doing them. I would just say there are a lot of questions that you cannot get great answers to from that process. So, Stacy, maybe you and I start a new product for interior designers. I don’t know, we create a new lighting system for fancy rich people houses, you’re in LA, right? They must have-

Stacy Jones (04:08):
Yeah, I have a fancy rich people house or the aspirations to have one, at least.

Rand Fishkin (04:12):
Right. I think I read that-

Stacy Jones (04:14):
I need those. I need that product. Yes.

Rand Fishkin (04:17):
I think Jessica Biel is selling her house for some massive amount of money-

Stacy Jones (04:23):
This God awful amount.

Rand Fishkin (04:23):
I think I saw it on my-

Stacy Jones (04:24):
Yes. I’m sure.

Rand Fishkin (04:25):
Feed the other day. Anyway. So maybe Jessica Biel’s house is getting some interior designers to come look at it and they’re looking at new lighting systems. And you and I have created, Stacy and Rand’s Wondrous House of Lighting. And so we want to know more about interior designers and decorators and architects. We want to figure out primarily, as marketers, I want to know where can I reach them? And to what extent can I reach them there? Things like what podcasts they listen to, which YouTube channels they subscribe to, who and what do they follow on which social media platforms, what websites do they read and visit, what press do they pay attention to, what industry publications, what events do they go to, what email newsletter are they subscribed to?

Rand Fishkin (05:12):
All those things are things where surveys and interviews will not get you very far. I think it’s just because it’s really hard to ask a person, “Hey, tell me about the relevant podcast in your industry that you listen to.” And then have them list those thoughtfully-

Stacy Jones (05:31):
They’re not going to remember it, really.

Rand Fishkin (05:34):
Yeah, it’s like a memory challenge and it’s also a, how do you survey for that in a large group? And then collect those answers. So ideally, the best way to do this is to get the home addresses of all your potential customers and then go to their house and break in, steal their phone, get the unlock code for their phone and then go look at everything they’re subscribed to. And everything they follow and go look in their iTunes listening history and go look at all the websites they visit and their search history, blah, blah, blah, blah.

Rand Fishkin (06:09):
This of course is highly illegal and super unethical. And no one should do it. I don’t want to suggest that anyone should attempt this. But in an ideal world, that’s how you would get this data. The lucky part that Casey and I realized a few years ago when we started SparkToro was, a ton of people, not everybody, but a ton of people are now making this data all completely public on their social and web profiles.

Stacy Jones (06:37):
Totally, without realizing that they do it.

Rand Fishkin (06:41):
I mean, I think a lot of people-

Stacy Jones (06:42):
They don’t care.

Rand Fishkin (06:42):
No, they’re like, “Oh yeah, I can see who everyone on my Instagram follows or everyone on my Twitter follows or all my LinkedIn connections. So everyone can see mine.” So like, it’s all just sort of this world of, obviously there’s private data. But then there’s a lot of social profiles that are completely public. People have opted-

Stacy Jones (07:00):
We’re not talking about here with Apple and with Google and all the changes. We’re talking, actually the stuff that is absolutely, front and center, not behind the scenes-

Rand Fishkin (07:11):
Intentionally public.

Stacy Jones (07:11):
It’s there.

Rand Fishkin (07:12):
Intentionally public. This would be like links that I posted to Twitter. I’m not only making them public by default, I am making them public intentionally. I want people to see that I shared those links. If you go to my YouTube profile, you can see which channels I subscribe to and where I commented and what I said. And that’s intentional. I intentionally want people to see … in fact, the goal of most people on these social platforms is, I want more people to see what I’m doing, not less.

Rand Fishkin (07:44):
So with SparkToro, we basically crawl the public social and websites, and then aggregate that data so that we can say, “Oh, okay, well you search for people whose bio includes interior designer in California. And we have, I don’t know, 1,910 people in our database whose profile says interior designer, California.” So what do they listen to? Watch? Read? Okay, 16% of them follow this account on social media and 19% read this publication. And 12% follow this social account on one or more of their social presence.

Stacy Jones (08:30):

Rand Fishkin (08:31):
That’s what SparkToro does. There’s no AI, there’s no machine learning, it’s not very complicated. It’s super simple division. The hardest part is just crawling and aggregating that data. And then the rest of it is just, “Oh, okay, well of 1,900 people, 320 followed this social account across one of the networks we can see. So we’ll put that one in this position with that percentage number.”

Stacy Jones (08:57):
So basically your software is searching for commonalities between different potential consumer groups for audiences, for brands. But then you are taking the ability to build accurate personas versus what the rest of the world tends to do of sitting around the table and being like, “Let’s name her Jane. She has a dog. She’s probably like 5’2” and has a kid. Maybe she’s our ideal customer because that’s what most people are doing.

Rand Fishkin (09:27):
Look, I understand that sort of avatar, imaginary avatar, persona exercise can be valuable for some people. That’s how they-

Stacy Jones (09:37):
Or a big waste of time.

Rand Fishkin (09:38):
Yeah. I don’t love it personally, but I don’t want to like crap on people who find empathy through building these imaginary profiles. Like I love fiction, I identify with fictional characters. I can understand like I get in someone’s head through a fictional representation of that. But I don’t-

Stacy Jones (09:56):
This is not what marketers want to hear with you saying that their lives are fiction.

Rand Fishkin (10:02):
Like whoever it is, marketing Mary, you come up with like Marketing Manager Mary or whatever, Software Engineer Stacy. And okay, you’ve created a persona. And maybe that helps you empathize with that archetype and design products for them and those kinds of things. My challenge is that the process often involves a lot of guesswork and intuition and not a lot of statistically accurate sampled data from secure sources. So if you were instead to use something, whatever, a large scale survey or a data set like SparkToro, or go manually get it yourself. Go crawl all the profiles of interior designers yourself, you don’t have to use SparkToro if you want to build your own web crawler and ping everyone’s Twitter and LinkedIn and Facebook and YouTube and get all the public ones and aggregate all their data. Awesome. Go for it.

Stacy Jones (11:04):
Look at you, giving away all your secrets because now someone can go out and design exactly that.

Rand Fishkin (11:08):
I mean, realistically, if you’re going to do that, SparkToro is a vastly cheaper way to do it, it’ll save you a ton of time. But if you want wanted to do it, you would get the same results. You’d probably get very similar to results to what you see in our product.

Rand Fishkin (11:22):
And so what I love about statistically sound data, whether you use a persona or not, is that you can say instead of, Software Engineer Stacy has a kid and likes long walks on the beach or whatever it is. Instead of that, you say, “Okay, 15% of our target audience who fits this software engineer mold follows this publication, 14% this one, 12% that one, 9% this one. We have 42 publications that are over 5%.” That’s where we want to be in. Those are the publications where we want to advertise or submit content pieces, or we want to do a sponsorship or a co-marketing event with them, or we want to be on their webinar or whatever it is. And that is going to make your marketing far more effective than, in my opinion, the classic persona exercise that’s a little more fictional character based.

Stacy Jones (12:23):
Sure. And so when you’re working with … and I know you’re on the side of actually buying the scenes of software. So it’s your software that’s working with people. But what are the things that typically are mistakes? That these brand marketers are doing when they’re approaching, besides building fake personas that aren’t really built on reality. What else are they doing and how they’re approaching building audiences. You mentioned that 40% of your client base is typically marketing agencies. What do you see as like the rinse and repeat problems that come up frequently? Or challenges?

Rand Fishkin (13:04):
Yeah. I think one of the most severe ones, and I completely understand why it exists, I have deep empathy for why it exists. But it is, throw 95% of our budget at Facebook and Google Ads, let them sort out all the targeting. Invest very little in content, social, organic, PR, co-marketing, one-on-one sponsorships-

Stacy Jones (13:29):
You mean the things that are going to stick around and keep on earning you eyeballs and impressions versus one and done and gone?

Rand Fishkin (13:36):
Yeah. I mean, the really frustrating part is … here’s an example. Let’s go back to our interior design business. So we’re selling to interior designers with our lighting business and we find a podcast that is absolutely perfect. A ton of interior designers in California, listen to this podcast, it’s really big with them. So, we pitch and we get you as a guest on there. And you talk about what’s wrong with the … I don’t know, the lighting design systems in Jessica Biel’s mansion. And like how you-

Stacy Jones (14:06):
Just not enough light.

Rand Fishkin (14:07):
Yeah, it’s going to be a great episode. Maybe Jessica comes on and she talks about how great you are. Whatever. It’s awesome, fantastic podcast episode. What do we see from that?

Rand Fishkin (14:17):
What we see is a bunch of people who never heard of us before now have heard of us. Many of them will go directly to our website. A bunch of them will go search Google for us. Maybe some of them will go to Facebook or Instagram or LinkedIn or Twitter or YouTube, and they’ll follow us there. What we will not see in our analytics is this podcast sent us a bunch of traffic that turned into customers. But what happens if you go to Google Ads and you buy a Google Ad, you spend $10,000 on Google Ads. What you’ll see is a whole bunch of people that Google Ads say came directly to you and purchased. And look, you can take that to the bank, those numbers, they say that the Google Ad converted and your CMO trust that and your investors trust that and your C-suite trust that and your board of directors trust that. So they all encourage you to go spend more money on Google Ads or Facebook.

Stacy Jones (15:11):
And you’re saying that’s the wrong approach.

Rand Fishkin (15:12):
It is absolutely the wrong approach.

Stacy Jones (15:15):

Rand Fishkin (15:15):
Here’s the big problem with that. When big companies, small companies, medium size companies have truly tested the efficacy of their advertising, their digital advertising. What they almost always find is that’s somewhere between 80 and 95% of the customers who purchased something through an Ad would’ve purchased anyway. Even if that Ad didn’t exist. So it is true that you are getting some marginal value from the Google or Facebook Ad. But really what you’re paying for is the ability to prove some providence to some marketing higher up or some executive. That’s what you’re paying for is the trackability of it.

Stacy Jones (16:04):
There’s a sales strategy, it’s not even strategy. There’s a sales saying, there’s a sales approach that says that, let’s say you go in to a giant stadium and you’re talking to everyone there. That at any one time, 3% of those that you’re talking to are potentially active consumers looking to purchase from you. The rest are all staged out, some of them are never going to buy. But what you’re saying is really, Google is tracking that 3% that is already planning on purchasing and maybe it’s helping focus some of them more on you. But they were already there and they were on the hunt.

Rand Fishkin (16:44):
The data in case study, after case study, example after example where an advertiser is truly willing to test this. And there’s only one way to test it, which is to-

Stacy Jones (16:53):
Spend money.

Rand Fishkin (16:53):
Run ads at a very large scale and then shut them off entirely. That’s the only way you can truly AB test. You could do it by Geo, as well. But time series is an effective way to do that.

Rand Fishkin (17:06):
I think this is one of the great frustrations of modern advertising. Is that the incentives for an individual agency, a consultant, a marketer is spend money on Google and Facebook Ads because no one gets fired for that. But if you turn that off and invest in, let’s say, a PR campaign, an influence marketing campaign, a content marketing campaign. Even if you see success with it, a lot of success. Look at our numbers, they’re all going up and to the right. Yeah, but can you perfectly attribute that to your efforts? You cannot. And so oftentimes those marketers will lose budget because they can’t prove that it was their content efforts, their PR efforts, their co-marketing efforts that led to the increase. It’s too hard to track. Google Ads, Facebook Ads make that super easy.

Stacy Jones (18:04):
See, I love you. Because my agency, Hollywood Branded, what we you do is we build branded content partnerships for companies. So product placements, celebrity endorsements, PR, influencer marketing. All those intangibles where people are like, “Well, I need to see a direct sale right away.” I’m like, “Oh, we can’t really see that.” And they’re like, “Oh, then we can’t really put budget on it.” What saying is, they should be putting budget on that. And putting a little bit less on the Google Ads and Facebook Ads and everything else. Can I just carry you around with me to sales presentations and just have you on my shoulder and tell people that?

Rand Fishkin (18:42):

Stacy Jones (18:43):

Rand Fishkin (18:43):
I come in a small miniaturized version, fits conveniently on your shoulder.

Stacy Jones (18:47):

Rand Fishkin (18:47):
Mini Rand Fishkin is now sold at all … I don’t know, Target stores. Sure. I was going to say though, Stacy, I think the way I’ve seen some savvy sophisticated marketers make this argument in a data driven way. In a way that’s like convincing to executives. Essentially what they’ll do is they’ll say, “Hey, look, we are going to experiment with these channels. And here’s how we’re going to prove out the value. We’re going to prove the value by increased branded search, increased direct traffic, increased direct traffic from the geo locations where we do these. And increased brand awareness among the audiences we want to reach.”

Rand Fishkin (19:34):
And so, for example, we’re going to go on this podcast and the two weeks after the podcast episode launches, we’re going to look at direct and branded search traffic. And if we see a commensurate spike after the podcast episode goes live, we should be able to attribute that to the podcast itself. And then we’re going to look at the lift and we’re going to look at the lift in traffic and say, “What was the conversion rate for the lifted traffic? And what was that conversion rate for that lifted traffic over the next six months or a year?” Assuming we can get some of them to register with an email address on our website or something like that, or sign up for our newsletter or try a free product or whatever it is. And then we look at that and we go, “The value of being on a podcast with an audience of this size that reaches this percent of our audience, according to SparkToro is this many dollars. Now let’s go do that again.”

Stacy Jones (20:28):
For those 40% of the marketing agencies that are signed up as clients for you, are they signing their client up, is it kind of like when you’re working with a brand and you’re like, “Okay, I need to get into your Google analytics. Can you add me in?” Is it that same route? Or can you, as an agency, run these tests using your software to get the analytics without the client having to lift a finger?

Rand Fishkin (20:52):
You can get the research portion without having to lift a finger. So you can say, this podcast is listened to by 24% of people who already follow your brand on one or more social networks.

Stacy Jones (21:03):

Rand Fishkin (21:03):
So if you are on there, the likelihood that we will reach more people that are like your existing audience is very high. That data is just right there, out in the open, in the tool. Lots of people put that in their marketing reports and their PDFs and their presentations and all that. Which is great.

Rand Fishkin (21:19):
What you can’t do is that next step of saying … you as the marketer or the marketing agency have to be the one that says, “These are the publications we’re going to pitch. This is what we’re going to pitch them. This is how we’re going to turn that pitch into a yes. And this is how we’re going to turn that yes into business return on investment for you.” That’s something that SparkToro is never going to do. Which is great. I don’t think we should try to do that, I think some of these marketing software firms that are like, “Oh yeah, we’re end to end. And we use artificial intelligence to show the whole-”

Stacy Jones (22:01):
You’re back into Google and Facebook BS.

Rand Fishkin (22:04):
I don’t buy that at all. I think that providing the data and then letting the smart, talented, capable folks to carry the ball the rest of the way is the right move.

Stacy Jones (22:18):

Rand Fishkin (22:23):
Obviously there are plenty of software CEOs who disagree with me and most of them have venture backing.

Stacy Jones (22:28):
Yeah, that’s okay.

Rand Fishkin (22:33):

Stacy Jones (22:33):
And so what are other mistakes on approaches that people make when it comes to audience analytics and trying to actually understand who you are targeting and who is actually buying?

Rand Fishkin (22:46):
Yeah. One that I kind of hate, I’m sure are lots of marketing agency owners will resonate with this one, is what I would call like the Wall Street Journal problem. I wrote about this a little while back, but the idea is that you go, you pitch the directors at the company that you want to sign up. And the CEO is like, “Okay, this sounds pretty good. I want you to get me a piece in the Wall Street Journal.” And the marketers all look at each other, like, the Wall Street Journal?

Stacy Jones (23:19):

Rand Fishkin (23:20):
Why? Do interior designers read the Wall Street Journal? And the CEO’s like, “I golf with our customers every Sunday. And I know they read the Wall Street Journal.” And everybody in the room kind of eye rolls because the CEO … it doesn’t have to be the Wall Street Journal. It’s just whichever prestigious publication the CEO thinks or the CMO or the director of marketing, whoever you’re pitching.

Stacy Jones (23:44):

Rand Fishkin (23:44):
Thinks is the one that reaches the audience. Unfortunately, for better or worse, I think this problem of prestige publication over high ROI publication is a constant challenge, not just in the PR world, but in advertising and sponsorship. It’s a huge problem in influencer marketing world. It’s a huge problem in targeting of all kinds, whether that’s like a content … oh, we’re going to contribute articles to this place or we’re going to pitch to be in this YouTube video, or we’re going to speak at this event or sponsor this event. No matter what you’re doing in marketing, this prestige problem is pervasive.

Rand Fishkin (24:30):
I think you can solve it with audience data. You can say, “Okay, you want to be in the Wall Street Journal, we can do it. The Wall Street Journal reaches 7% of interior designers in California, Dezeen Magazine online reaches 47% of interior designers in California. The Wall Street Journal is prestigious, it could lead to other business avenues that aren’t directly our customers. Is it 10 times more valuable to you? Because I’ll tell you right now, it’s 10 times more work and 10 times more costly to get in there.” And then you let them make the call. You let the CEO tell you, “Oh yeah, I want you to spend 10 times the effort in dollars getting us into this publication that’s primarily for prestige reasons rather than customer ones.”

Stacy Jones (25:26):
And there can be a difference between a PR approach and an advertising approach. Because the CEO may want the Wall Street Journal name on his website, as seen in the Wall Street Journal. But I will 100% agree that even for myself, I’ll do PR. And the hustle way outperforms anything I’ve done in the Wall Street Journal or New York Times. That’s where I’m going to hear from people and be like, “Oh my gosh, I saw you there. I saw what you said.” Versus the other, my mom gets excited.

Rand Fishkin (25:56):
So the impress my grandparents’ phenomenon is a real thing. And look, a lot of PR folks, advertising folks, marketing folks get hired to solve the, I want my grandparents to be proud of me and so I want to be in a publication they’ve heard of. As opposed to, I am looking for a return on my marketing investment dollars. Because frankly, I think a lot of the time, the return on marketing investment dollars, many brands, many executive teams foolishly think that the right way to do that is Facebook and Google advertising.

Stacy Jones (26:36):
So Rand, how can people find SparkToro? How can they find you? How can they learn more information in general?

Rand Fishkin (26:43):
Yeah. A nice thing about SparkToro, we’ve got a forever free account. So you don’t have to pay to use it, you can just sign up, start getting some data. If you find it valuable or you want more, it’s got some paid tears. But it’s SparkToro.com.

Stacy Jones (26:57):
You can unlock the potential.

Rand Fishkin (27:00):
I mean, Stacy, full disclose. We have, I think more than 50,000 marketers use the free version.

Stacy Jones (27:06):

Rand Fishkin (27:07):
So the free version can do a lot-

Stacy Jones (27:09):
A lot.

Rand Fishkin (27:10):
And we intentionally built it that way, like we want it to be useful even if you don’t have budget. I think that’s a great way to build a business and a great way to change an industry. and a mindset. So by all means, yeah, feel free to sign up for free at SparkToro.com. If you’re specifically interested in all the wacky rants I go on and occasional pasta tutorial cooking classes and dialogue with my award winning author, wife, Geraldine. You can find me on Twitter, where I am @randfish.

Stacy Jones (27:47):
Perfect. And so what else are average common potential mistakes that people will make?

Rand Fishkin (27:57):
Oh, man. I mean, I think there’s a bias in a lot of marketing to doing things you’ve seen your competition do as opposed to innovating on tactics and channels that are not as well understood, not as well invested in. And that bias can be a dangerous one, too. There’s like this, the truth is somewhere in the middle problem of, you don’t want to go all the way to, we do nothing that anybody else in our field does. And you don’t want to be the, we’re lemmings and we follow exactly what the competition does and just copy them. You want this healthy balance between, we innovate in some areas in ways that we are good at, that match with our brand ethos and our skill set. And also we research what the competition is doing and we look for opportunities that other people are executing on as well.

Stacy Jones (29:14):
Yeah. Yeah. Being the lemming is definitely not going to win you a lot of business. But it is going to potentially keep your job very safe if you’re working for someone who is not a risk taker and an innovator.

Rand Fishkin (29:25):
Yeah. Look, I think that for a lot of marketers, what I hear from many, many folks is that the innovation, the new thinking, the creative and experimental things that they invest in are often for their smaller clients and for their personal and side projects. And then they can bring them to their bigger clients after they’ve earned their trust and proven their ROI with not lemming tactics. But things that are more often Facebook and Google Ads.

Stacy Jones (29:59):
What got you into soft software development? Like how did you start out in this world where you’re like, “I am going to just embrace what this whole internet is and make people be able to have better companies.”

Rand Fishkin (30:14):
Gosh. I think in my early years in SEO, I realized that I did not love consulting. I love consultants and agencies like a lot of my personal friends run agencies, most of SparkToro’s investors are like people who own agencies or are consultants, so that kind of thing.

Stacy Jones (30:36):
They’re like, “Oh my gosh, thank you so much for making this sale. I’ll invest. I’ll invest.”

Rand Fishkin (30:40):
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, exactly. And that’s awesome. I think I’m not good at it because I don’t work well with the like sales side of consulting. Like that part is very energy sapping for me. And software, like the beauty of software is that it scales with decreasing friction and has this arms length distance between the transactional side and the relationship side.

Stacy Jones (31:12):

Rand Fishkin (31:12):
So I can have a relationship with people and have no idea whether they’re customers of SparkToro or not. And if they are, great, if they’re not, that’s great, too. It doesn’t futs with my box of relationship, personal versus business, that kind of thing. I like having personal relationships with everyone. I don’t really get the whole, “Oh, it’s a business thing.” Well, what’s a business … it’s all just life. What are you talking about? It’s no business and personal.

Stacy Jones (31:49):
Yeah, we have the same thing. Again, like what we do as an agency is we create opportunities that are cool for people to see. And someone will come up and they’ll be like, “Oh, well our brand B2B and we’re looking for that business target.” And I’m like, “What do you think that guy or gal’s doing at the end of the day with their kids and their wife or their partner and feet are up on the couch? And they’re like trying to take a moment away from what they actually did for business all day long.” We’re all still people and how we interact. What years saying is the same as my belief is that, it’s not a business thing, it’s a people thing. It’s an approach of how do you actually just partner and engage and chat with real people?

Rand Fishkin (32:38):
The wisdom of the Greek diner owner in the infamous movie, The Muppets Take Manhattan-

Stacy Jones (32:46):
Very infamous.

Rand Fishkin (32:48):
Peoples is peoples. There’s frogs, there’s pigs, there’s dancing, there’s peoples. Wiser words have never been spoken.

Stacy Jones (33:00):
Well, I think that is an excellent note for us to say, are there any other last words of parting advice that you can give our audience?

Rand Fishkin (33:11):
Are you kidding me? Quoting Muppets Take Manhattan on a podcast, that is-

Stacy Jones (33:15):
That’s it.

Rand Fishkin (33:16):
No that’s scene.

Stacy Jones (33:18):

Rand Fishkin (33:21):
Stacy, thank you. Thank you so much for having me. I have really enjoyed our chat today.

Stacy Jones (33:25):
Of course, Rand, I really enjoyed having you on as well. And I am absolutely going to and have our team, as well, check out your software. Because my like light bulbs are going off right now, going, “Maybe this would help us with this initiative or this challenge and how to address it.” So thank you so much for your time today.

Rand Fishkin (33:45):
It’s my pleasure.

Stacy Jones (33:46):
And then to all of our listeners, thank you for tuning in to another episode of Marketing Mistakes and How to Avoid Them. Obviously Rand has given us some phenomenal insights and takeaways today.

Stacy Jones (34:00):
And just as a reminder, here at Hollywood Branded, we are so passionate about all things, branded content. And believe that influencers, celebrities, TV, streaming, film, and music can give your brand power and sales. If you want to partner with any sort of pop culture content, reach out to us, and we are happily chat you through the processes and what the opportunities are. And until next week, have a great one.

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Marketing Mistakes and How To Avoid Them Reviews 

Must-Listen For Every Brand Marketer (And Owner)

This should be required listening for everyone who owns a business, works in marketing, or is interested in the business of entertainment. Great stuff!

The Best Marketing Podcast Ever!

Stacy is a brilliant branding strategist and she really knows how to bring out the best in her guests! This show is fun AND educational! If you’re looking to understand the world of marketing, branding, digital marketing, influencer marketing and more, look no further. This show has awesome insight into some of the greatest marketing minds out there today, and they provide practical advice you can use in your business today. #FanForLife

Awesome podcast for all marketers!

Keep them coming

Practical and pointed advice.

Stacy does a really great job making this a highly actionable podcast for business owners. With a focus on marketing, she covers a wide range of related topics as well and is always very specific with her questions so that the listener gets pointed advice instead of vague concepts to take away. It’s also really helpful to the hear the why behind any marketing tactic so that we can decide if something sounds like a good fit for where we are at in this moment.

Love this marketing podcast!

Lori has a way of finding new insights to share every week. I loved being a guest, but I enjoy hearing her many fascinating conversations with other marketers even more. Great show!

I love Stacey Jones!

I absolutely loved being on this podcast! Stacey is amazing – real, down to earth, and genuinely curious and interested in learning – this makes for a very engaging conversation and valuable podcast!

Thank you for your podcast! I LOVE IT

I just listened to the episode named Insights To Product Placement Brand Marketers Need To Know, and I really enjoyed every minute of it! There are so many ways to approach product placement in a manner that provides wins for many – and it is not always driven by money. I am looking forward to listening to more!

Stuff we need to know!!

Anyone who is in business should be listening to this podcast! Incredible insights and advice.

Such a wealth of knowledge! 🧠

This is one of the most insightful podcasts that I have ever come across! Stacy does such a great job of sharing her wisdom and I love how she leads meaningful conversations with guests who bring so much experience to the table. Highly recommend checking this show out – you won’t be disappointed!

Awesome Podcast!!!

Stacy, host of the Marketing Mistakes (And How To Avoid Them) Podcast, highlights all marketing and more in this can’t miss podcast! The host and expert guests offer insightful advice and information that is helpful to anyone that listens!
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