EP 175: Understanding Privacy Laws with Jodi Daniels | Red Clover Advisors

In this episode, Stacy sits down with Jodi Daniels, the CEO and founder of Red Clover Advisors. The two discuss why it is important for businesses to be knowledgable about current privacy laws and its impact on customer data collection, digital governance, and online data strategy.

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Stacy Jones: 00:00
Welcome to Marketing Mistakes and How to Avoid Them. I’m Stacy Jones, the founder of influencer marketing and branded content agency Hollywood Branded. This podcast provides brand marketers a learning platform for topics for us to share their insights and knowledge on topics which make a direct impact on your business today. While it is impossible to be well versed on every topic and strategy that can improve bottom line results, my goal is to help you avoid making costly mistakes of time, energy, or money, whether you are doing a DIY approach or hiring an expert to help. Let’s begin today’s discussion.

Speaker 2: 00:31
Welcome to Marketing Mistakes and How to Avoid Them. Here’s your host, Stacy Jones.

Stacy Jones: 00:36
Welcome to Marketing Mistakes and How to Avoid Them. I’m Stacy Jones. I’m so happy to be here with you all today and I want to give a very warm welcome to Jodi Daniels. Jodi is the founder and CEO of Red Clover Advisors, a boutique privacy consulting agency. Jodi works with businesses in every industry to help them better understand and stay compliant with ever changing regulations in privacy, customer data collection and use, digital governance, online data strategy, and much more. Jodi understands the challenges that building and managing a business or brand, and when it comes to compliance, she understands that there’s a vast lack of understanding, so she works to simplify privacy laws so business owners and management can concentrate on growing their businesses.

Stacy Jones: 01:19
Today we’re going to learn best practices from Jodi’s experience, what could be avoided, and how some companies are missing the mark. Jodi, welcome.

Jodi Daniels: 01:28
Well thank you, I’m so glad to be here today.

Stacy Jones: 01:31
Jodi, I’m so happy to have you here today, and I’d love for you to start off sharing a little bit more about you and your background on how you got to where you are today.

Jodi Daniels: 01:41
Sure, so it’s interesting, I was just actually talking with someone earlier today about my career because it’s really morphed and changed over time. Actually started as an accountant at Deloitte in the financial statement audit group, if you could believe that. So I did that for a number of years. Then I went to Home Depot and did some finance and strategy work, then I went to Cox Enterprises, and for ten years I was there. I was in their strategy group. Then I did online advertising. So I built a behaviorally targeted ad network before there were Facebook ads for autotrader.com and I stalked you for cars. So if you bought a car from me, you’re welcome.

Jodi Daniels: 02:23
From there, people [inaudible 00:02:25], and that’s honestly how I got into privacy. I was responsible for compliance with some regulations that came out, I built a privacy program from scratch at Cox Automotive, which is the parent company to autotrader.com and Kelly Blue Book, plus a bunch of other brands on the business side most people aren’t familiar with, those are the big consumer brands. So I built a privacy program for Cox there, and then I went to Bank of America, was their digital privacy expert for just under two years, and it’s two years now since I have my own privacy consultancy and really helping small, medium companies with all things privacy.

Stacy Jones: 03:03
Very cool, and I’m actually not surprised by where you started and where you got because that all requires kind of an analytical approach to looking at things, plus you have the marketing overlay on that, so that’s awesome.

Jodi Daniels: 03:15
Yes, yep. And I do very much take a very marketing centric approach in the privacy work that I’m doing.

Stacy Jones: 03:22
So for our listeners who don’t know that much about privacy or privacy laws, and they’ve probably been hearing or reading or listening to different people chatting about it, can you give us a little bit of a broad strokes overview of why privacy laws exist and what matters about them to business owners?

Jodi Daniels: 03:42
Sure. And to do that we have to sort of separate the US where we are, and the rest of the world. We take a very different approach. So I’ll start actually with Europe. In Europe, our listeners have probably been seeing lots of cookie pop ups and accept our cookies and emails around we care about your privacy, here’s this new privacy notice. That is all courtesy of GDPR. Those four letters stand for the General Data Protection Regulation. It just celebrated it’s first birthday, so end of May. We’re in the toddler years now of GDPR and Europe takes a very individualized approach to privacy meaning it’s each person, it’s a fundamental right to privacy and they also take it at a very national level, here’s the big privacy law for all of the EU, each country can then have it’s own more specific if you want, but GDPRs kind of the floor and it puts the individual first.

Jodi Daniels: 04:47
In the United States, we take a very business centric approach to privacy, we’re very capitalistic, it’s all about also helping the small businesses, so many of our laws, privacy or not, often have a minimum threshold, trying to exclude the small businesses to help make them grow and try not to have compliance or anything be a burden to them. We’ve had privacy laws in the United States for a while, it’s just a sectoral approach. Meaning, healthcare, everyone often thinks of HIPPA when you go to the doctors office. Your financial banking information and credit card, that’s under it’s own privacy law. Many of the marketers are probably familiar with the CAN-SPAM Act making sure our emails, I can unsubscribe from them. The ability to be on a do not call list, that’s it’s own separate privacy law. And now where we are today is the amount of data that we have because of all our amazing digital technologies, creates literally 2.5 quintillion data bytes a day of data around the world. We have a lot of data. Companies are doing all kinds of fascinating, interesting, maybe not so wonderful things with it, and now we have privacy laws that are trying to catch up with honestly all the activities that people are doing.

Stacy Jones: 06:06
That is an excellent summary.

Jodi Daniels: 06:09
Thank you. I try and speak in plain English terms, I pride myself on it.

Stacy Jones: 06:15
Now privacy law differ whether you are targeting as a business consumer markets versus B2B markets, isn’t that accurate?

Jodi Daniels: 06:23
Yeah, so that’s also another really interesting one, and it differs EU versus US again. In the EU they don’t differentiate between small business or mega global business. Their philosophy is you’re a business, I’m a person, you should protect my data, and I as a person don’t care how big you are, you should just do the right thing. From a B2C perspective under GDPR for example or the e-privacy directive which we might get into, they are much more … B2B is a little more lenient in some narrow slice of it, but generally speaking, it also applies B2C and B2B. In the United States, a lot of the laws have been B2C. There is a new, well some of it also applies, like CAN-SPAM for sure is B2B. There’s a new privacy law coming in California, it’s effective January 1st, 2020, so just a few months away.

Stacy Jones: 07:25
Oh joy.

Jodi Daniels: 07:26
That one-

Stacy Jones: 07:27
I’m in California.

Jodi Daniels: 07:28
Pardon me? Yes where you are, California.

Stacy Jones: 07:30
[crosstalk 00:07:30] California.

Jodi Daniels: 07:31
Yeah. They are often leaders in a variety of laws. The new California law, it’s affectionately known as CCPA, and it will apply to businesses and to consumers. So B2B and B2C will be treated the same in that capacity, and what’s interesting from a B2B perspective across both the US and the EU which is important to call out, with so many people now being solopreneurs and a very small business, they’re technically a business, but in the eyes of these laws they’re still a solopreneur, and my individual cell phone and my individual account might lend itself more to the B2C law then the B2B law. So yeah, you have to think about that.

Stacy Jones: 08:23
You might actually have less protection then, if you think that you acting as a B2B.

Jodi Daniels: 08:31
Right, so a good example might be, let’s say you want to call a variety of people, or under GDPR, if you had an email list and you thought it’s all B2B, but actually there’s a bunch of solopreneurs on that list, those people are actually treated as a B2C environment, which means they have more privacy protections. You as the business are responsibility for knowing that difference.

Stacy Jones: 08:56
It doesn’t matter that they have a business email address, it’s not that you just have to look for a yahoo and aol and Google or Gmail, whatever you might have, now you actually have to dive inward and know whether or not those business domains that you think are on there could actually be consumer [inaudible 00:09:18].

Jodi Daniels: 09:18
Right. And the same would be true for example in the United States with cellphones. So many people these days don’t have a business phone and a personal phone, they just blended it together but it’s my personal cellphone it might be Jodi Daniel’s cellphone, I work for big company A, you want to call me, you now just actually called a consumer.

Stacy Jones: 09:38
And I think [inaudible 00:09:41] because we get dozens of calls every day from overseas saying “Don’t you need financing?” And someone called me at 6:15 in the morning, and I’m like “It’s 6:15 in the morning, and it’s a [inaudible 00:09:56].”

Jodi Daniels: 09:57
Yeah. There’s so many of those right now. It’s important to think about that, or if you’re in an industry, so for example, having been in the auto industry, you have big dealers, but you also have a lot of independent dealers, small dealers, and you might be contacting their individual personal address and their individual cellphone, and you have to make sure that you’re complying with the various privacy laws when trying to contact them.

Stacy Jones: 10:22
That’s interesting. So what happens if someone breaks the law? They contact someone, it’s outside of the boundaries, what are you putting yourself at risk of?

Jodi Daniels: 10:31
Well the one that makes headlines, of course, are all the fines, and there’s been a lot of interesting fines. They’re starting to come out more and more from GDPR. But the big headline is GDPR can fine you up to four percent of global revenue. That’s a lot of money. And Marriott just got fined, almost fined, and intent to fine, I have to be very careful, of 99 million pounds. British Airways, 128 million pounds. Today, a very small company, 200,000. So there’s a fine that can come with it. In the United States, especially with the new CCPA Act, there are also a variety of fines. They do it kind of per record, so it might be a couple thousand dollars per record. If you have a security breach, that can also be a fine per record.

Jodi Daniels: 11:21
I like, while the fines are very important, and obviously hit the bottom line, there’s also a lot more at stake to me than just the fine, and it comes in a couple places. I’ve actually seen clients come through because their customers first ask them before they even do business with them, or maybe they’re doing business and it’s time to update the contract, I need you to agree to these privacy and security terms. If you as a business can’t agree to those privacy and security terms, you just lost a deal. You just lost sales. It’s not only the fines, but you’re also going to lose potential sales, and then if you have a major privacy mishap, you might lose some customer trust, you’re starting to see more and more companies really putting forward that privacy matters, and I love to use Apple and Android as an example.

Jodi Daniels: 12:13
Apple, I watch very little TV, but the few times I see it, I always seem to find the Apple commercial that talks about privacy on their iPhone. They’re spending prime time dollars to not tell me about the amazing iTunes and camera on my phone, but to tell me about the privacy on my phone, and that’s to contrast with Android which is kind of known to be an open platform riddled with privacy challenges. It can certainly be fines as that hook of what the consequence is. It really is customer trust and negative publicity that can also come with it and potential loss of sales.

Stacy Jones: 12:53
And are consumers just sitting there waiting to turn businesses in, they’re like “Ah, you violated it, you did something on [inaudible 00:12:59], or you [inaudible 00:13:00].” Do you have like a watchdog consumer turn one in type of system in place?

Jodi Daniels: 13:08
Oh you definitely do. Especially in Europe, there are groups of advocates who are ready to pounce on certain businesses that they feel are very egregious in how they’re using data, but they also are a variety of people who better or worse are kind of trolls and are out there trying to find the companies and trying to find the loopholes of what it is that they’re doing right or wrong. There’s also really good advocacy groups trying to just make sure that businesses are doing the right thing, and then you have honestly consumers who are starting to pay attention and really want companies to manage the data and use it in a way that they expect, that it doesn’t surprise them, and I think consumers are starting to get a little bit smarter in it.

Stacy Jones: 13:59
What are some of the things that businesses do that violate the laws?

Jodi Daniels: 14:06
Yeah, and I’m going to also answer that because while we’re certainly talking about privacy laws, the other area that I find equally interesting is especially in the United States and in marketing, there are privacy laws, but there’s actually not a lot of them. So we can collect and use a lot of data, and there isn’t a law that says we can’t, the question is should we?

Jodi Daniels: 14:32
When a company goes and puts, typical website, I’m going to put a cookie on the site so I can analyze my traffic and re target you and do things like that. Then I might use another company, another cookie is on the site to track my user behavior all along the web, and the incentive for me as the website is I get some type of kickback or payment for doing that. Well now that company goes and collects all the data, builds a profile, sells it. Someone else wants to utilize that for advertising, and you start to hear the stories of the pregnancy app who’s data was shared with an employer. You start to hear about the kids who are targeted in their video games with all types of inappropriate ads. You get the, well hold on I just spoke about this on my phone and now I see an ad on Facebook or somewhere else. How did it just know? I didn’t type it, I just spoke it.

Jodi Daniels: 15:30
When you add all of that together, there isn’t a law in the United States that says you can’t do those activities. Where we are is I have to disclose what I’m doing, and where California is moving is you have to disclose it even more specifically and give me more choices. So the biggest piece is really all around transparency. Now if we were in Europe, there’s a lot more that I can and can’t do. It’s much more strict and you have to really think about it in advance first and decide am I allowed to do this and why am I allowed to do this? And then tell me why I’m doing it, and then make sure I can opt out or something like that. In the United States we’re a little bit different.

Stacy Jones: 16:17
So this is even, we will have, or a lot of us now have Amazon’s Alexa in our house, and we know it’s about to start talking with me right now, I said her name, she woke up. But you [inaudible 00:16:30] when you’re having conversations and you don’t say her name, you are seeing her light up and you know that there’s some sort of data collection that’s probably happening to some degree or another.

Jodi Daniels: 16:40
Absolutely. It absolutely is. I was actually, I talked to a marketing audience and my co presenter’s Apple watch went off as we were talking on stage. We were clearly not talking to Siri, but she thought we were. The other thing, especially with Alexas, the more and more skills that are created, the more and more awake words, so she’s going to keep listening a lot more, and it is listening in the background.

Stacy Jones: 17:12
So someone I was talking to the other day, they said that they turned to their wife and said “Hey honey, I’m heading off to work.” And they walked out to their car, and really at that moment their whatever device said “It is going to be a 15 minute longer commute today.” And he had never programmed, he had never said anything, it just picked up on the fact that he was heading to work.

Jodi Daniels: 17:35
Yep, my phone does that too. If I hop in the car and I’ve done it, if I’ve gone the same route enough times, it will predict where I’m going and tell me it’s 12 minutes here, 27 minutes there, and I’m thinking “I didn’t program you. Why are you doing this to me?”

Stacy Jones: 17:50
Right. But it’s collecting data. It knows your movements. And I was talking to a brand the other day, a company that is in launch, and they are entirely built their company in order to collect data points, because he knows that when he gets a certain amount of data points, he can sell that data points for X amount of money, and so that is something that’s very real, when we work with apps, when we work with a lot of different companies out there now, it’s more about how many users can you get to download an app from the product placement that you put in a movie or TV show, and it’s not just about oh we want them on our dating relationship app, we want them on our business finance app, it’s more about how can we collect the data so that we can sell it to third parties.

Jodi Daniels: 18:38
Exactly. And actually, the big conversation going around right now is the big viral app where you upload your picture and it changes your-

Stacy Jones: 18:49

Jodi Daniels: 18:49
and what do you look like. Well there’s a lot of controversy, especially in the privacy community around that because now that company owns that photo and can do anything it wants, and it has the meta data associated with that. It might not use it right now, but it might in the future, and these things are free, but you’ve paid with your data.

Stacy Jones: 19:09
Yep. And we know a lot of people amongst our friend group who have backed off of Facebook since all of the issues of too much information being leaked out and they no longer have social media accounts and you’re seeing people who are pulling back to a great degree.

Jodi Daniels: 19:25
You are. There’s still billions of people who are using it, and I’ve seen even myself included, I’ve pulled back on what I share and how often I share, I do see something very similar where people are changing their habits because they care. In the research that I use about two thirds of Americans care about what’s happening with their data. They want greater regulation, they don’t trust advertisers, and 9% of people trust social media, with what’s happening with their data.

Stacy Jones: 20:01
But we all like it enough that we keep on using it to a high degree.

Jodi Daniels: 20:05
We do, because there’s no great alternative. But look what’s happened, we readjusted our habits. We don’t trust them and so we’ve changed. So the amount of data that they’re collecting is not going to be as great compared with if a different platform comes along and has a different model or if the existing platforms come along and say “We’re taking your privacy seriously, we’re taking a different direction, this is what we’re doing, these are more controls.” And that’s effectively what’s starting to happen with these different privacy laws, it’s pushing all companies small to big to have to be more transparent and give more information and rights over to companies.

Jodi Daniels: 20:45
Since we’re talking about Facebook as an example, you can now go into Facebook and see, in some of the targeted ads, it will give you information of the type of data that was in the ad to target you and why. That wasn’t provided before it was really just a on-off switch of I’m okay with ads, I’m not okay with ads, or I’m okay with targeted and not. Now you’re getting to the level of detail in how they got the information.

Stacy Jones: 21:12
Okay. That’s interesting. If you actually went in there and you took a look at that, you could probably change some of your own behaviors to not give away some of those little secrets about yourself so much.

Jodi Daniels: 21:23
Yes. Yep. And you can go, so anytime you see a sponsored or tarted ad there’s a little arrow and if you click on it and read more about the ad that’s where you can find the information.

Stacy Jones: 21:33
Interesting. I had no idea. I am going to look at all those target ads coming at me now.

Jodi Daniels: 21:37
There you go. That is your tidbit of knowledge for the day.

Stacy Jones: 21:39
Perfect. I think I’m getting a lot of tidbits of knowledge. But that’s a learning lesson. So what are some of the other mistakes that businesses make?

Jodi Daniels: 21:48
So I think the other is, the privacy notice is considered this boring legal document and it is kind of a necessarily evil document. What I see happen is a couple things. First, it doesn’t get updated. That document is required by a variety of places. If you do business in Europe, we can talk about the GDPR requirements, but if there’s any impact there you have to have an updated privacy notice. If you do business in California today or Delaware or Illinois or a variety of other states, you have to have a privacy notice, and the federal trade commission requires you to have one. So there’s a lot of places that make you have one.

Jodi Daniels: 22:30
The mistake is that they write it and they forget about it. It’s a living, breathing document. It’s meant to do a couple things, it’s meant to be literally your legal coverage for telling the person here’s what we’re doing with your data. Once you chop that legal requirement away, which is extremely important, it’s also your communication vehicle. It’s how you’re connecting with your customers of this is what I’m collecting, this is why, this is what your choices are, and where I’m seeing companies go is creating a trust center, really updating that privacy notice with summaries, with hyper links, with visual boxes to make it a usable document and a conversation between.

Jodi Daniels: 23:13
So the mistake is that they think it’s just this check the box activity, they leave it and they never come back to it. But anytime you’re going to go and embark on some type of new marketing campaign, strategy platform, you want to come back to it.

Jodi Daniels: 23:26
The other is being very trusting with the cool new marketing technology that you’re going to be using. When you hand over that data, it’s stored on their servers. Well what are they doing with it? Some of them will say well I have access to it, thank you for storing it with me, I’m going to do XYZ. Or what are the security controls that they have around that data, because if there’s a data breach with that email service provider and you had my email, I’m going to blame you, the brand, not really the other service provider, because I was the customer, I trusted you with my email, it’s your job to go make sure you’re working with vendors that make sense.

Jodi Daniels: 24:04
So those are kind of the big ones, and then I think just in general is either going too conservative where especially in GDPR they stopped everything. And there’s ways to work around that, there’s ways to have some creative messaging, to still be able to entice people to opt into to your lead magnet and do things like that. And the others I think where people try to hide what they’re doing because they’re scared if they’re forthright and explain we’re collecting your data, or we’re sharing it, or we’re selling it, that I might not use your service, and I think what people want is honesty and integrity.

Jodi Daniels: 24:41
I’ve seen companies where it’s free, and they’ll have a little data page, and on that page they’ll explain thanks for using our service, we’re a free service, this is why, this is what we do with our data. Thank you for telling me, it’s my choice now, if I want to use you, or if I don’t. You were honest and I appreciate the honesty.

Stacy Jones: 25:01
That also makes a lot of sense. Now going back to Europe versus the United States versus another country, just because you’re a business in the United States doesn’t mean that you are not required to meet European laws, correct?

Jodi Daniels: 25:15
Oh absolutely. Yeah. So the way that works is I could be a solo blogger, I’m here in Atlanta, I could be writing about healthy living, which is my personal passion. I might attract a global audience on purpose, I’m trying to attract a global audience. I’m in scope for GDPR. The measures are, if you have a physical presence in the EU you’re absolutely in scope, if you are a business here in the United States listening, if you are offering goods and services to people in Europe, you are in scope. If you are actively monitoring the behavior, you might have a Facebook Pixel, you might have a Google Analytics Pixel and it’s set to global, then you’re in scope for GDPR, and if you are a service provider and your customers are giving you personal data and the data that they’ve given you includes people from the EU, you now might be asked to comply with GDPR because the way it works is the original company who collects the data, when they pass it off to a vendor or a service provider, they’re responsible for making sure all the vendors and service providers are compliant. Which means you then also have to be compliant.

Jodi Daniels: 26:33
Imagine you’re an agency, and you’re getting all the emails so that you can upload them into Facebook. First I’d recommend not doing that, it should go directly into Facebook. But let’s pretend you do that, or there’s some other purpose for why you have them, maybe you’re managing an event that’s in France or something along those lines. You now have personal data on an EU resident, and the company who sent it to you should ensure you are compliant as well.

Stacy Jones: 26:58
And so as a business owner, you almost really want to look at the most restrictive laws that are in place and just put them in place for yourself even if you’re not in Europe, if you’re in the United States, and kind of have an awareness so that you don’t accidentally breach a law that might put your company in jeopardy elsewhere if you happen to be touching that other country.

Jodi Daniels: 27:21
Absolutely. And I’d also say, sometimes people will say, let’s use individual rights, meaning you hear a lot in the headlines in the stories the ability for me to delete my information under GDPR, it’s called the right to be forgotten, the right to delete, and there’s a similar one now under California that’s coming. In that scenario, what happens if Jodi from Atlanta asks you to delete that information? Will you tell me no because I’m not from Europe? Or will you say okay, yes, you’re asking as a customer that’s what I should do. Same as a conversation for California. People are asking should I apply at just a California residence, or should I just apply it to my whole business? And most companies that I’m talking to for a variety of reasons are applying it across the business. One, as a customer I want what I want, not only from a legal perspective, if you tell me well there’s no law in Georgia, I’m going to say okay I don’t like you as a company and I’m not going to be your customer anymore. And then operationally it’s really challenging and not very efficient to have to manage to every different one.

Jodi Daniels: 28:32
You’re seeing companies create that right floor of what you were talking about to make it a better experience for themselves internally, and to make sure that they’re providing really what their customers want. Going back to the whole customer is right thing.

Stacy Jones: 28:47
What else do businesses need to know and be aware of?

Jodi Daniels: 28:51
The key is, actually a really important one, is when we talk about personal data, there’s still a bit of a misconception of personal data being name, email, credit card information, maybe health information, kind of the basic what we think of when we think of a data breach. Under the new era of privacy laws, it includes all the online identifiers, those cookies, those IP addresses. What we used to be known as anonymous data. I’d work with people and they’d say oh but that’s anonymous, it’s fine. Well, it’s not really anonymous because if you get enough of the pieces together you can connect it all, and the whole idea is this digital footprint, and first is making sure that you have a solid understanding of all the personal data that you collect in the organization, what do you collect, where is it stored, how is it used, to whom is it shared with?

Jodi Daniels: 29:49
Those are essential critical pieces for any marketer to know before you can even write that beautiful privacy notice I was talking about, or figure out how to honor individual rights. You have to know that, and that ongoing piece is critical. A company might go and get that all started, they’re going to go through and figure out great, here’s my CRM activities, here’s where all my email marketing is, this is my digital targeting, they file it away in their digital folder and then they think they’re done, and that was a really amazing start to building a great foundation. Now you have to start building the walls to your privacy house, and you have to maintain it, and you have to keep it up. It doesn’t stay that way forever, our businesses are stagnant, we trade vendors, we change processes, people and organization change.

Jodi Daniels: 30:38
So we have to make sure that we’re always maintaining those data inventories, and it doesn’t have to be complex, it just has to be a part of the everyday language that we’re doing, or at least come back to it in some periodic fashion.

Stacy Jones: 30:54
Right. And I think a lot of people don’t even think about some of the data that they might be collecting, so I’m sure there are other agencies and businesses like mine that are out there that are like okay we blog and we have landing pages and oh yeah we use Hub Spot or A Webber, all these other different platforms out there. Well if you dive in and look into your CRM databases, it is collecting that IP address, it is collecting so much information that you can really figure out a lot about your customers, that unless you’re a little techy or a little knowledgeable you have no idea it’s even at your fingertips. But you’re still responsible for that data.

Jodi Daniels: 31:28
Exactly. And in Google Analytics, a lot of times that analytics code is grabbing more information than you really want to. I’ll work with agencies and they’ll see, they’ll do Google Analytic on it and they’ll see emails and credit card numbers and all kinds of personal information coming through there. That actually just violates Google’s terms. You don’t want to collect any of that within that tag, and in general with all these different systems, someone might feel like oh they’re just a simple small business, when you start adding up all the different tools and technologies that you’re using, think about a calender system, think about do you use any apps going from here to there, your financial system, when you’re sending invoices, what kind of information was on the invoice. You mentioned the CRM system, Hub Spot, email marketing, there’s so many different survey tools, so many different places, that data stored it’s really important to just create an inventory and you want to do it kind of by, we call it process activity.

Jodi Daniels: 32:29
Email marketing is really very different than your digital targeting, Facebook ads, they’ve all very different. So you kind of want to look at it like that and start from top to bottom, what is it that we’re doing. And from there you can start building upon it.

Stacy Jones: 32:43
And how much time do you think people can be dedicating to these activities?

Jodi Daniels: 32:48
That’s a great question, I think it’s really tied to the size of the business. A bigger business that has a lot more of a complex situation is going to need to spend more time on it. And people will say is it by revenue, is it by employee, and honestly it’s by the kind of data that you’re collecting. And it’s not the volume of data, it’s just the complexity of what it is that you’re doing, how different is your business activities. So it’s kind of hard to give a perfect number, but I would say to get started, it’s a little bit of an investment in terms of some time and dollars, and that’s true for anything. When you set up a CRM system it takes some time. So it’s the same idea. Get that foundation started, it can be anywhere from five hours to 20 hours over a period of time, again just kind of going to how complex. If you have ten systems and you can rattle them off in a minute, it probably won’t be as long. If you’re working with 40 systems and you’re a bigger company, it might take a little bit longer. Also depending on how many vendors and people that you’re working with.

Jodi Daniels: 33:53
At least annually, at least annually, you want to go back and review everything that you’ve done, and make sure, is this still accurate? Did we change anything out? And if you’re a bigger organization or you’re changing a lot, I would change that to be quarterly or semi annually, again just depending on what it is that you’re doing and how often you’re changing.

Stacy Jones: 34:15
Or of course you could probably hire someone to help you with this.

Jodi Daniels: 34:19
Absolutely, you could also hire someone to help you with this.

Stacy Jones: 34:22
Like you.

Jodi Daniels: 34:23
Yeah. So I very much go and help companies, many small companies you don’t need a full time person, we hire a part time accountant or a bookkeeper, we hire marketers to help us to these things so that we are focused on what we’re best at doing, and the same is true for privacy. So I’m helping to fill that void where you don’t want to learn everything around privacy, but know that it’s important to you, and I come and I can help offer and take that off your plate.

Stacy Jones: 34:53
And what are the first things that you look at, so if someone brings you on board, are you digging in and looking at okay what are the software platforms you use, where do you do digital advertising, what type of content are you capturing with pixels, do you just try to get a broad overview of what their digital footprint actually is?

Jodi Daniels: 35:13
Yep, so the very first question is where are you doing business, because that’s going to identify if GDPR is in scope or not. There’s also Canadian laws, especially for marketers to be mindful of. The Canadian email marketing law is very strict-

Stacy Jones: 35:29

Jodi Daniels: 35:29
-marketing law.

Stacy Jones: 35:30
It is so tough, it is tough.

Jodi Daniels: 35:31
Yes, and a lot of people forget about that one because we’ve been so focused on the US and GDPR, but the Canadian email marketing law is very strict, and in fact it actually includes social media messaging as well. Anyone listening, if we just put antennas and deer and headlights on you then reach out and we’ll talk. But I will ask geography of where the business is, and then very much also are you B2C or B2B, and the type of data that you’re collecting, the systems and what you’re doing with it. And from there determines how long an engagement, how simple, what it is that we need to change, what it is that we need to be thinking about. The data collection piece is the absolute critical foundation to start from.

Stacy Jones: 36:21
Okay. What you just mentioned in social, so what do you mean by that? It includes social, like [inaudible 00:36:28] was like hm, social, what?

Jodi Daniels: 36:29
Yeah. So think about the messaging in social, I can’t just go, if I’m a business and I want to send a message to me, and now I live in Vancouver, Canada, it’s beautiful up there, you can’t just message me cold if I’m a Canadian resident. I have to opt in to be able to get that social media message. I would suggest you should do that with everybody and I think many of the social messaging platforms are working that way. But even from a one to one perspective, you still have to be really careful about how you’re going to message someone in those platforms with it being a cold marketing pitch. On a LinkedIn kind of platform where it’s about connecting, tell me what you do, that’s very different than a true marketing message of let me tell you all the great services I have, when can I schedule an appointment, and then hound you for hey why haven’t you opened and replied and scheduled a meeting? Those are always my favorites.

Jodi Daniels: 37:26
So that’s what I mean from the social media perspective is those messaging platforms, and are you doing it cold, are you doing it with consent first, and I would say honestly for anyone in those social platforms, I would not just push messaging to them without the consent first. People still kind of hold that mailbox, it’s different than email.

Stacy Jones: 37:49
And obviously also with LinkedIn, as you point out.

Jodi Daniels: 37:52
Yes, any of the social media platforms. Wherever there’s a DM capability, I wouldn’t just cold push messages in there even though, and this is an example where in the United States there isn’t a law that says I can’t. The expectation of customers though is that’s my sacred box. That’s what I use to communicate with my friends or to buy the $4 shoes I found over here for my kid, that’s my special box, and it’s just moving into this business realm, and the more, if you just push your way in, I might not be as receptive.

Stacy Jones: 38:28
Yeah. You’re going to want to hang up and hit delete.

Jodi Daniels: 38:30
I have to welcome you into my social messaging box land.

Stacy Jones: 38:35
Yeah. You want to delete, delete, delete, and it actually turns you off and you no longer ever want to consider working with that business or individual.

Jodi Daniels: 38:42
Yep, yep. So sometimes we feel like gosh there’s all these amazing vehicles I have to use all of them, and it’s critical to understand the expectation of the customer before I just push them all to make sure I’m getting the right response, which is you want someone to click and open your email. You want them to click on your ad, you want them to know, like, and trust you. Isn’t that the key phrase we have here. Well you’re not going to do that if you surprise them in any manner in any of the messaging platforms. You’ve literally negated all the hard work you’ve done.

Stacy Jones: 39:12
Okay. So, if someone does want to learn more about you because they’re just sitting here listening and going oh my god I don’t even know where to start, how can they learn more about you and where can they go?

Jodi Daniels: 39:24
Absolutely. So I’m easy to find I think. You can start by going to redcloveradvisors.com/marketingmistakes and you will find a beautiful page there where you can get more information, especially on the upcoming California law, there’s also information on GDPR, we could schedule a consultation. You can find me on Facebook, Red Clover Advisors. On LinkedIn you can find me personally there and on my company page, Red Clover Advisors, and even my email is super simple, just [email protected]

Stacy Jones: 40:02
Fantastic. And then you have also created a link for all of our listeners too I believe.

Jodi Daniels: 40:08
Yes. So that would be the redcloveradvisors.com/marketingmistakes. I think you’ll I’m sure have that in the show notes, but anyone who’s listening in the car like I often listen to podcasts, go to the show notes and go grab it.

Stacy Jones: 40:22
Absolutely. It will definitely be there without a doubt.

Jodi Daniels: 40:25

Stacy Jones: 40:26
Any last words of guidance or advice to our listeners today?

Jodi Daniels: 40:31
I hope that for anyone listening here will realize that privacy laws, they’re here, we want to be good company stewards and adhere to them and also realize that privacy and the data that we collect is truly an opportunity to build an amazing relationship with our customers. That this is about earning customer trust. Comply with the privacy laws, but go beyond that, and really make it about a sustainable relationship based on mutual trust and it will pay off in dividends, and also quite frankly give you a competitive edge right now against anyone else who does not look at it that way.

Stacy Jones: 41:14
Perfect. And make sure that your privacy law statement is not boring, it is lots of text but it’s actually something that’s beneficial as you have said.

Jodi Daniels: 41:21
Yes, and there’s a lot of different templates and things out there. I highly recommend please work with someone who knows how to write privacy notices to make sure that it reflects your business, because if you go and borrow from someone else’s business you just put their privacy notice on your page and that’s not what your business is all about.

Stacy Jones: 41:43
Perfect. Well thank you so much, really enjoyed having you here today and I know I learned a lot and I’m sure our listeners did as well.

Jodi Daniels: 41:49
Well Stacy thank you so much and it was a privilege and honor to be here. Thank you.

Stacy Jones: 41:54
Of course, and to our listeners, thank you so much for tuning into Marketing Mistakes and How to Avoid Them. I look forward to chatting with you next week.


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Marketing Mistakes and How To Avoid Them Reviews 

Must-Listen For Every Brand Marketer (And Owner)

This should be required listening for everyone who owns a business, works in marketing, or is interested in the business of entertainment. Great stuff!

The Best Marketing Podcast Ever!

Stacy is a brilliant branding strategist and she really knows how to bring out the best in her guests! This show is fun AND educational! If you’re looking to understand the world of marketing, branding, digital marketing, influencer marketing and more, look no further. This show has awesome insight into some of the greatest marketing minds out there today, and they provide practical advice you can use in your business today. #FanForLife

Awesome podcast for all marketers!

Keep them coming

Practical and pointed advice.

Stacy does a really great job making this a highly actionable podcast for business owners. With a focus on marketing, she covers a wide range of related topics as well and is always very specific with her questions so that the listener gets pointed advice instead of vague concepts to take away. It’s also really helpful to the hear the why behind any marketing tactic so that we can decide if something sounds like a good fit for where we are at in this moment.

Love this marketing podcast!

Lori has a way of finding new insights to share every week. I loved being a guest, but I enjoy hearing her many fascinating conversations with other marketers even more. Great show!

I love Stacey Jones!

I absolutely loved being on this podcast! Stacey is amazing – real, down to earth, and genuinely curious and interested in learning – this makes for a very engaging conversation and valuable podcast!

Thank you for your podcast! I LOVE IT

I just listened to the episode named Insights To Product Placement Brand Marketers Need To Know, and I really enjoyed every minute of it! There are so many ways to approach product placement in a manner that provides wins for many – and it is not always driven by money. I am looking forward to listening to more!

Stuff we need to know!!

Anyone who is in business should be listening to this podcast! Incredible insights and advice.

Such a wealth of knowledge! 🧠

This is one of the most insightful podcasts that I have ever come across! Stacy does such a great job of sharing her wisdom and I love how she leads meaningful conversations with guests who bring so much experience to the table. Highly recommend checking this show out – you won’t be disappointed!

Awesome Podcast!!!

Stacy, host of the Marketing Mistakes (And How To Avoid Them) Podcast, highlights all marketing and more in this can’t miss podcast! The host and expert guests offer insightful advice and information that is helpful to anyone that listens!
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