In this episode, Stacy sits down with David Norton, who is the founder of Ladder Up. David has over fourteen years of experience working in the entertainment industry, and during his time, he has helped many television productions find brands to partner with for product placement, integration, sponsorships, and more. The two discuss their experience, and share their perspective on what brands should be doing to create massive success on screen.

Ways To Connect:
LinkedIn: davidnortonladderup
Instagram: davidmnorton
Twitter: DavidMNorton

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Transcript For This Episode:

Stacy Jones (00:01):
Welcome to Marketing Mistakes & How to Avoid Them. I’m Stacy Jones, the founder of influencer marketing and branded content agency, Hollywood Branded. This podcast provides brand marketers a learning platform for topics for us to share their insights and knowledge on topics which make a direct impact on your business today. While it is impossible to be well-versed on every topic and strategy that can improve bottom-line results my goal is to help you avoid making costly mistakes of time, energy, or money, whether you are doing a DIY approach or hiring an expert to help. Let’s begin today’s discussion.Speaker 2 (00:31):
Welcome to Marketing Mistakes & How to Avoid Them. Here’s your host, Stacy Jones.Stacy Jones (00:36):
Welcome to Marketing Mistakes & How to Avoid Them. I’m Stacy Jones, and I’m so happy to be here with you all today and want to give a very warm welcome to David Norton. David’s a television producer and the founder of Ladder Up. He has over 14 years of working in the entertainment industry helping television productions find brand partners for product placement and integration, sponsorship, pricing, and licensing partnerships.I’ve known David for most of his career in Hollywood, starting with a few different shows, but definitely way back when he worked on The Biggest Loser, and some of the more recent series he’s worked on include Queer Eye, Next in Fashion, Final Table and Deal or No Deal.Today, we’re going to talk about how brands can leverage television and streaming platform content and create partnerships for massive success on screen. We’ll learn what works from David’s perspective, what should be avoided, and how some people miss the mark. David, welcome. So happy to have you here today.David Norton (01:30):
Hi Stacy. Thanks for having meStacy Jones (01:32):
Would love for you to start off sharing with our listeners how you got started in the space. What got you to where you are today to doing brand deals on behalf of productions?

David Norton (01:42):
Sure. Yeah. I actually came from production. I was working for the Discovery Channel a lot, doing a lot of Animal Planet shows, working in post-production and kind of made a transition into post-production technology working with a startup that was connecting major studios around the world to major post houses around the world, which was a lot of fun.

2008 happens. I’m like, “Oh, I better go back to school.” Got my MBA. Wanted to just hop back into production, getting more hands-on. My friend was working on a show for NBC said, “You should be a trade out producer. You should be our trade out producer.” I’m like, “What is a trade out producer? I don’t even know what that is.”
He’s like, “Don’t worry about it, you’ll be great at it.” He’s like, “You got a production background, you’ve got your MBA. So you’ve got the business background. That’s all it is. It’s just production meets business.” So like, “Okay, great.” So jumped into a show that was hosted by Amy Grant called Three Wishes. Short-lived show from Glassman Media. I think we worked on that together-

Stacy Jones (02:48):
We did. We worked on that one too, yeah.

David Norton (02:50):
I met you the first time at Glassman Media’s offices.

Stacy Jones (02:54):
Yeah.

David Norton (02:54):
So we did about $3 million in trade outs for that show. We traded out everything from cows for a dairy barn, to a firetruck. I think Liberty Mutual gave us a 150 grand to buy a firetruck to make a little girl’s dream come true. So there’s a lot of fun. Nobody said no to us. I was like, “Okay, trade outs are cool. Let’s do more trade outs.”
NBC kind of took notice of that and said, “We’ve got some people we’d like you to meet.” I did The Biggest Loser. Straight out of that, went straight into The Biggest Loser and Last Comic Standing simultaneously. So I was doing prizing, did a big deal for Capital One for Last Comic Standing, and just did so many deals for The Biggest Loser, which was great.

The Biggest Loser was such … NBC is such a great partner for brands because they allowed a lot to happen in the show provided the brand was in good standing from a media perspective. So we tried to make it organic. We tried to make sure that you didn’t see the money changing hands, but that was kind of what got it all started. The Biggest Loser I think really put Ladder Up Media on the map as a major player in brand integration and trade outs.

Stacy Jones (04:08):
How do you think way back when, it’s not been that long, but way back when has changed from then to now?

David Norton (04:16):
Surprisingly, I think in the last 15 years, things have not changed very much. You see a lot of the same, this production is open to this type of brand integration. This production is open to that type of brand integration or trade out. Some shows are willing to do guaranteed exposure, some shows aren’t willing to do guaranteed exposure.
The biggest change of course is with streamers like Netflix and now HBO Max and Amazon coming on the scene, and they really have a whole sort of bevy of guidelines for what you can and can’t do and what works and doesn’t work. Honestly, we see this pendulum swinging and it’s swinging very fast on the streamers. They look at best practices probably a lot faster than a network. Networks seem to be more entrenched and the pendulum swung a lot slower on NBC, for example, in terms of what you could and couldn’t do for brands in shows.

Stacy Jones (05:22):
You made a comment a moment ago that NBC was very friendly to work with, brands were in good standing with their media. I’m trying not to put words in your mouth because you and I worked in the same field, I work on the brand side, you work on the production side, but when you’re saying that, is it that NBC in your opinion, back then, or even now, the networks, they have restrictions on what brands are willing to work with because they’re not willing to just give advertising and space, and exposure in a show to a brand who’s not actually paying for 30-second ad spots to run.

David Norton (06:00):
Exactly. Yeah, yeah. With the networks, I mean their main business is selling advertising. That’s why they exist is to create … Content is supported by advertising, it’s free content. I mean, we don’t have to spell this out for your viewers, but it’s like, Netflix is not … you’re paying for Netflix. You pay your subscription. They have billions of dollars in subscription fees so they can spend billions of dollars creating content.

With NBC, you’re not paying for it. You don’t have to pay for it. Most people do pay for it, but you don’t have to pay for NBC. You’re getting it over the air, that’s paid for by commercials people. That’s just how it works. Brand integration is there to, and trade outs are really there to defray the cost of production or to make a show that’s too expensive more affordable and more capable of being produced.

Oftentimes, I’ll get a company that comes to me and they’re like, “Oh, you know, we were deficit financing this.” So we need to come up with a quarter million dollars or we need to come up with, you know, a hundred thousand dollars per episode to break even because the production company is deficit financing it. So we’re going to go out there and get the money for them, but still, they need to be in good standing. Those brands need to be in good standing with the network so that the network can either say, “Yes, we can do this brand integration with no additional media buy or here’s this small, additional media buy that’s required,” or they got to catch up.

A dozen years ago I was in a situation where an office supplies company was needed for a big show. We had that, we had the perfect company. It was so great. The network said, “Listen, they don’t spend as much as this other major office supplies company. In fact, they don’t spend it all. So if they want to be in the show and they want to get this incredible brand integration in this incredibly popular show, they’ve got to spend an extra $10 million with us just to catch up.” You know?

Stacy Jones (07:57):
Yeah.

David Norton (07:58):
So it really depends on what’s happening in the upfronts and what’s happening over the years, and what kind of relationship does the brand have.

Again on Netflix and the streamers, you don’t really have that because they’re not ad-supported. So at the same time, depending on the production, they may or may not want to take money. So you may not be able to buy your way in. Netflix tells me all the time, “We are not for sale. If it helps production and we need it and it’s incidental, you can do it. It’s fine, but we’re not for sale and we don’t need brands to make our shows. We’ve got the money we need for production.”

Stacy Jones (08:38):
When you’re seeing productions taking dollars on Netflix or other streaming platforms, it’s not that they’re pocketing the dollars. They’re actually-

David Norton (08:46):
No.

Stacy Jones (08:47):
… re-investing this into the content.

David Norton (08:48):
Right, it’s going into the content. Exactly. It’s always going into the content. It’s always to make up a budget deficit. Almost always there to make up a budget deficit.

Stacy Jones (08:58):
Or just to make the content better. We know of producers who will use it to get better music licensing.

David Norton (09:02):
This is true.

Stacy Jones (09:03):
I know you’ve used it for a better story on screen where there needs to be a better like reveal, and so you need to have a better super, over the top experience for someone to be able to have.

David Norton (09:15):
Exactly. Yeah, yeah. We wanted to give away something big in one of our shows and yeah, there was no money. That’s what Three Wishes was all about. We had a very small budget to make these wishes come true. So we needed to go out and get something like half a million dollars in product every episode just to make these wishes come true. So it wasn’t really … there wasn’t budget to make the show as big as NBC wanted it. So you have to go out and you get these trade outs in order to make the show bigger.

Stacy Jones (09:47):
It’s very similar to how talk shows work with their audience, giveaways because they needed something to actually excite the people that come to the shows, sit in their seat, build up buzz. That’s why they do it. The show’s not going to go out and purchase everything.

David Norton (09:59):
Absolutely. Right. It’s so funny, I interviewed at a talk show once, I didn’t get the job, I don’t know why, but I’m probably glad I didn’t get the job. But I interviewed to do the trade outs for a talk show once and it really was, they don’t pay their audiences, but they have people who show up day after day after day like it’s their job to get a free vacuum cleaner or whatever it is that they’re giving away, free vacations, free appliances, free … whatever it is.

Those people will either, they’ll put that stuff on eBay and they’re actually doing it as a job. So they’ll go and sit in the audience for four or five, six hours, get their free product, go sell it on eBay, come back the next day, do it all over again. But that’s how you get an audience. I mean, you need a hundred people in the audience and you would have to pay them each $200 a day. That’s a lot of money for a talk show that’s shooting five episodes a week.

Stacy Jones (10:56):
When instead a brand can simply provide a product. It’s their wholesale cost that it costs them, shipping if they’re not providing it on set. Then the show is scratching their back in return by giving them some messaging and beauty shots and local up.

David Norton (11:10):
Yeah, it all works. It’s all full circle.

Stacy Jones (11:13):
Now on some of the network shows that you’ve worked on, if you’re not a national advertiser, that doesn’t mean that the door is shut. It actually means that the door may be more open in some cases.

David Norton (11:24):
Isn’t that funny?

Stacy Jones (11:25):
Yeah.

David Norton (11:26):
We’ll oftentimes have a contract with a network that says, “Oh yeah, you can put non-national advertisers on the show. Non-national advertisers can even pay integration fees and we don’t need media from them.” It’s harder because most non-national advertisers don’t have the budgets, frankly if you don’t have an advertising budget.
You look at an integration that may cost what one or two 30-second spots would cost, and this same brand is buying hundreds of 30-second spots. You look at these integration fees and it’s really almost nothing compared to the advertising that they’re placing.

It’s the same thing, we talk about celebrity endorsement sometimes, because you’ll have talent in the show who’s getting a multimillion-dollar celebrity endorsement for the brand and you’re trying to get them to do one little thing for a brand in the show and they don’t want to and were getting paid a small percentage of what they would get paid for their endorsement. It’s wild. Brand integration is incredibly cost-effective and I’m not sure what we need to do to drive the pricing up. But really, it’s there, it’s about the same cost as a 30-second spot.

Stacy Jones (12:46):
Yeah. We spend a lot of time, the whole reason I started this podcast, the whole reason we started our blogs, I mean, we are incredibly, incredibly active at Hollywood Branded on trying to educate brands and agencies on the power of product placement and the cost affordable levels and the low CPMs on it.

It’s shocking because I think brands don’t get it. They don’t get the power. They don’t understand that when a brand is baked into one episode, it’s now there for life. It is going to be there in 20 or 30 years when that show is still being replayed. It’s the Friends, it’s The Office, the Seinfelds, you’re still seeing the placements from back in the day showing up and they have a relevancy. Yeah.

David Norton (13:31):
No, it’s amazing. Even though the contract says that the network can take it out for future airings, they rarely do because there’s cost associated with that. It’s in there because there were companies, there are companies around who will do digital replacement, like you can turn a Coke can into a Pepsi can. How often that happens, I don’t think it happens very often. I think it’s very rare that you go back in and change a brand integration or a product placement for reruns or for syndication. It’s just don’t think it happens that often. Maybe it does, maybe I’m wrong. Maybe it’s scripted more.

Stacy Jones (14:08):
No, it’s not happening actually. The reason why it’s not happening as rights holders, because if those dollars come in, that brand, you know how much consideration goes in by a producer to say, “Yes or no, that brand can be in our episode.” So if you want to go in later on and digitally changed that and plop it in, as some companies are trying to do, the brand was originally cast, it’s almost an actor, it’s a piece of talent, right?

David Norton (14:34):
All the stakeholders have to sign off again, which is never going to happen.

Stacy Jones (14:37):
Right. How do you figure that out? The old contracts certainly don’t have rights baked in to change out imagery like that. Then who actually gets the money because who is the end all rights holder who owns that property? It’s not necessarily who originally owned it when it was being produced.

David Norton (14:54):
Right.

Stacy Jones (14:54):
And so, there’s a lot of issues. There’s a lot of people saying, “Oh, the fantastic world of digital product placement, we can just pop something in there,” but it actually affects the story.

David Norton (15:05):
Yeah. Yeah. It’s funny, the technology is good though. We use the technology and it uses motion tracking and 3D and maths and all that. It’s very interesting. I used it in a show to enhance a brand’s logo because you just couldn’t see the logo. I remember going to the producer and I was working with ad sales. This was one of those where ad sales and I had sort of worked in partnership to bring the brand to the table and to get it in the show and worked with the producer to script it.

This was one of the rare scripted shows that I did. The producer was like, “It’s going to look like crap. We can’t do it.” We went into post and I’m sitting in the edit bay with the producer and it looks perfect. He was so mad that it looked perfect because he was like, “Now I want to do it all the time.” It’s so funny because I was just watching another show that he produced, a brand new show that just came out by the same producer and that technology of the motion tracking-

Stacy Jones (15:05):
Digital tracking. Uh-huh (affirmative).

David Norton (16:20):
… and the digital insertion is throughout the show because it’s like set in the future kind of show. So they’re using it throughout the show. I’m like, “I wonder if he came up with that special effect because of what we did a decade ago on that other show we produced together?”

Stacy Jones (16:36):
Yeah. Yeah. Well, the technology is definitely there. Where I’ve seen it work also really well is if something needs to be geo-specific, localized.

David Norton (16:46):
Oh, yeah.

Stacy Jones (16:46):
So let’s say you have Pepsi in the United States and Pepsi has a different logo and branding in China and India and you can go in there and actually tweak and change it. So that it [crosstalk 00:16:59]

David Norton (16:58):
If you’re doing it beforehand it works really well like if you’re planning this out.

Stacy Jones (16:58):
Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yeah.

David Norton (17:02):
I think that’s a big thing, I’ll get brands after the fact asking for things like, “Oh, did we get this? Did we get that?” It’s like, “You didn’t ask for that. You didn’t negotiate it. It’s not in the contract.” Like make sure everything is clear. That’s probably a big in terms of tips and tricks for your audiences, make sure everything is clear. If you want five photographs, ask for five photographs for promo. If you want to make sure that your brand is this way, it needs to be spelled out in the contract because they’re rarely going to … oftentimes we over-deliver, but we want to over-deliver in the direction that the brand really, really needs.

I think my biggest tip for brands in terms of what’s working is be flexible. Go into it with that expectation of your brand is going to be portrayed positively, but give the producers creative leeway. They’re the creative whatever’s behind this thing. The more leeway and the more positive you are, the nicer they’re likely to be to your brand in the show.

The more you spell it out, this has been my experience a lot, the more it’s spelled out so specifically, you’re only going to get that. The more specific you are, you’re never going to get more than that. If you give guidelines and suggestions and maybe some guardrails, but you’re cool about it. Like don’t underestimate the power of being cool as a brand, like be cool about it, the producers will be cooler about what they’re able to give to you. It’ll come across more organically. The more organic it is, the more likely the network will say, “Yeah, leave that in for the whole thing.”

I mean, we had a brand that was super cool come into one of our shows and the minimum exposure was go shop in store, touch this particular product and give us a logo visual once. We could have done just that. Right? Sometimes that’s what it turns into in that show. It turned into several minutes of being in their store, shopping. The talent is saying the name, which the verbal wasn’t even a requirement. It wasn’t even available.
This network doesn’t even allow verbals, and they ended up getting almost four minutes. I mean, the media value of that with multiple verbals, multiple visuals, and talking points, they didn’t even give us talking points, but it’s like, they hit the talking points of what would have been had they given it to us for the particular product they wanted us to touch. So the beyond that you can get when you’re cool and you keep it expectations reasonable is just amazing. The media value is probably 10 X, what they paid for that brand integration.

Stacy Jones (20:00):
Yeah. I think one of the reasons why businesses like yours with Ladder Up and mine with Hollywood Branded exists is being middlemen we’re able to actually speak the production language as well as the brand language and help them come together because where everything goes wrong and where I think you have a lot of agencies and brands say, “I’m not willing to cut just a couple of commercials to do this integration,” is they want so much control and the production wants to be creative.

Sometimes, unfortunately on the flip side, the production wants to be so creative they don’t want to hit anything that would actually make the brand happy. That’s why, when you’re working with companies and agencies like ours, it helps have that voice where you can find that middle ground and actually understand what [inaudible 00:20:51]

David Norton (20:52):
Yeah. We’ve started writing contracts that allow for incidental exposure, allow the production company to get paid for it if it happens organically, but also set an expectation that if it doesn’t, if it’s not happening organically, no harm, no foul, it just doesn’t happen and they don’t pay for it.

Stacy Jones (20:52):
Right.

David Norton (21:13):
So we’ll set a deal where it’s like, “Okay, we’re going to do up to two integrations with up to this exposure. If we hit these benchmarks, if we hit these key points, then we get paid. If we don’t hit those key points, we don’t get paid,” but we try and we love making those deals because it allows it to be organic, which is better for the show. It’s better for the brand and it keeps these networks that aren’t for sale happy.

Stacy Jones (21:41):
Yeah. We’ve done a lot of that also where it’s tiered. So at this level, if you hit this much, it’s going to be this. We still want the brand to, and the production still wants the incentive because some are more incentivized by money than maybe some of the shows you’re working on where at least there’s lower tiers. So they still feel like it was worth the effort to at least go that half-mile. They didn’t go the entire mile.

David Norton (21:41):
Yeah.

Stacy Jones (22:07):
Yeah. Anyway. What are some of the other issues you sometimes see with brands? What are the mistakes they make beside asking for too much creative control?

David Norton (22:16):
I see brands missing out on big opportunities because they want more information than is available. You have to understand, Netflix does not gather demographic information about their subscribers. Netflix doesn’t know how old their subscribers are. I mean, they might know, but they don’t ask for that. They don’t ask for a birthdate when you sign up for Netflix. So if a brand comes to me and says, “Oh, I want the 18 to 24 demographic,” all I can do is sell them a show that’s targeted at that demo.

I can’t give them any data. I know Nielsen is working to create that data, but you know, Netflix disputes, whether their numbers are accurate or not, there’s other big brand integration agencies who are trying to come up with data. As I compare it to Netflix’s data, there’s a lot of disparity and not that Netflix actually gives me any data.
I don’t have any data. I don’t know how many people are viewing it, but we know given that subscriber base on a streamer like Netflix, everyone, everyone has a Netflix subscription now. There’s billions of hours of Netflix being watched every week. They just added, I saw the number, they added like 18 and a half million subscribers last quarter. Just incredible the reach of it.

So the biggest mistake I see brands making is sticking with older channels that don’t deliver the exposure that we believe these streamers are delivering just because they have data on it. So you end up paying more for less because you can confirm that you’ve got less, but you can’t confirm that you got the more, even though logically we know you did. So that’s a big mistake.

The other mistake is being … the biggest mistake I also see is being too specific about your creative or holding too firmly to specific creative instead of allowing brands creative control. Another mistake I see is taking too long to close a deal. Brands need to learn to move faster. This is such a small percentage of their budget in most cases, they just need to move more quickly and close the deal and get it done.

Be comfortable with uncertainty, like in terms of a tip for brands, be comfortable with uncertainty, especially with streamers. They’re not going to tell you when something’s going to air. So just know that it’s probably going to be a year after you are in production on that particular integration. You’re probably not going to see it air for a year. So go with evergreen or go with something that’s coming out next year. Don’t tie two releases. If you want flight dates and you want specific release dates you’re going to spend more and go with a broadcast network.

Stacy Jones (25:21):
Guess what? Even if you have all of that, something called COVID-19 can come in and just blow up your release schedule.

David Norton (25:30):
It’s nuts. I mean, we’re in production on three different shows, like Ladder Up was in production on three different shows and pre-production on a couple more. Here comes COVID. Fortunately, one of them was able to do the finale, our HBO Max show, Legendary, that’s coming out May 27th. That’s very exciting, was into its final episode and we did the finale with no audience, but we just sort of squeaked by, got it into post-production, [inaudible 00:26:05] got sent to people’s houses so we could cut it. It’s being cut and finalized now, but just under the wire. But other stuff, I mean, I’ve got a warehouse full of products for Queer Eye that’s just waiting for Texas to open back up, you know?

Stacy Jones (26:24):
One of the other things, you touched on it a but you didn’t dive into it is where I think brands make mistakes, where they’re looking for tried and true. You mentioned Legendary, it’s a phenomenal, very big show and it’s going to do quite well. But even talking to some of our clients there was resistance because, “Oh, we don’t know the show.”

People seem to like second seasons and are afraid to take a risk of the first, but the first season is where you can get the most affordable brand opportunities and some of the biggest opportunities because once a shows that’s known success is going to clamp down on what those brand opportunities are. If you’re a brand who’s willing to go in and actually help a production, solve a need that they have because they want to make their story better and you get in on the early days, you’re building a relationship that is going to carry you from one season to the next.

David Norton (27:21):
Right. It’s so true. No, it’s so true. You can get in at a lower level and then be the brand for that show, you know?

Stacy Jones (27:30):
Yeah.

David Norton (27:32):
To kind of like you said it perfectly by the way. But another point to add on to that is with streamers you may have a hit show that only goes one season. It could be it’s like this is an amazing show. It’s a perfect fit for the brand. It’s going to get millions of views. It’s going to be up on that streamer for, in perpetuity, right?
It’s just going to keep getting more and more viewers year after year after year, week after week, but it’s not going to go a second season for a variety of reasons. Even if it’s a great show, it may not go. Or that second season may be two years in coming. If you’re looking at a production cycle where a new show shoots, airs a year later and doesn’t get greenlit for a season two until after it’s aired, right?

Stacy Jones (27:32):
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

David Norton (28:22):
Now it’s going to go into production six months after that and it’ll air a year after that. So you could have a gap. I mean, we’re seeing gaps on Amazon of two years between shows, right? It’s like driving me crazy as a fan of Marvelous Miss Maizel like, “Come out Mrs. Maizel,” whatever. Incredible show but the gap between the seasons is just like infuriating.

But I think brands need to … like a big tip is go for those season one shows. If it sounds good, it’s going to be good. The audience is so huge and the distribution is so massive on these big streamers that it’s going to get way more views than anything you could do on another episode of Cousins on Call, or whatever is on HD TV. Like you can do that tried and true, but it’s just going to get lost in the morass. It’s not going to get those eyeballs that you want, it’s not going to be as meaningful. It’s just going to be one of many.

Coming on a season one you’re going to be one of very few brands in that show. That’s another thing that we’re trying to do really well is only put a few brands in a show. Don’t ask for too much. Let’s keep it natural. Let’s not see the money changing hands. Let’s respect that viewers are paying for this content. That’s a big thing with Netflix, respect that viewers are playing for this content, and don’t try to be too heavy-handed with your brand integration. Keep it easy, keep it natural. If it’s incidental to the scene, it’s going to be great. If you’re putting a commercial into the show you’re going to make that paying customer of Netflix upset and it’s going to turn them off to your brand.

Stacy Jones (30:06):
You just don’t want to have cringey product placement.

David Norton (30:06):
No cringey product placement.

Stacy Jones (30:08):
I mean, no one wants that because when it’s cringy people are going to social media and they’re calling it out and that’s not good for the production and it’s really not good for the brand.

David Norton (30:18):
Yeah. Yeah. Please, brands get on board with this because the more you make cringey, the less the networks are going to let any brands do. That’s the thing, we’ve all got to kind of work together to create an environment in which brands are respecting producers and viewers, and not asking for too much, but asking for the right things at the right time. That’s going to build trust with distributors, which will allow for more product integration that’s meaningful and fits with the show and supports the creative rather than getting in the way of the entertainment.

Stacy Jones (31:01):
Well, David, how can people find you? So if there’s a production out there and they’re like, “Oh, I need to hire David. He’s going to be my trade out, pricing, integration, product placement guy.”

David Norton (31:11):
I love it. [email protected] Shoot me an email.

Stacy Jones (31:17):
Perfect.

David Norton (31:17):
That’s the easiest way to do it and ladderupmedia.com. I think there’s a website up there.

Stacy Jones (31:22):
There is. There is. I’ve looked at it. Yes, you have a website.

David Norton (31:25):
It’s not terrible, it’s not terrible.

Stacy Jones (31:25):
No.

David Norton (31:27):
I fixed it up recently. So I think they can get on there and send it, or just send an email, [email protected] It’s always there. I’m always there.

Stacy Jones (31:38):
Any last words of putting advice to our listeners today?

David Norton (31:43):
Gosh, take a chance on brand integration. If you’ve never done it before, try it, at least do a trade out or a pricing, or something. I have a lot of brands who come and do trade outs and brand integration with me for the first time. I don’t know how many times I’ve heard, “We’ve never done that before.” Then they come on board. They trust us. They do it. We deliver and their mind is blown. So take a chance and give it a shot and see what it can do for your brand. It’s very, very cost-effective.

Stacy Jones (32:19):
Well, David, thank you so much for sharing the insights and time with us today. We really appreciate it.

David Norton (32:24):
Thanks, Stacy.

Stacy Jones (32:25):
Of course.

David Norton (32:25):
Have a great day.

Stacy Jones (32:28):
And to all of our listeners, thank you for tuning into Marketing Mistakes & How to Avoid them. I look forward to chatting with you next week.

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